Why Your Supplements Make You Feel Worse (The Secret hidden in Your Genetics)

Nick Urban [00:00:05]:
Is DNA testing and analytics useful or a scam? You’ve probably heard of tools like 23andme, ancestry.com, nebula genomics, sequencing.com. There are lots of different tools and services out there, but does the underlying technology actually make a difference? In this episode, I have a PhD scientist trained in pharmacology, cancer, and inflammation research who has had a lifelong passion for understanding how substances affect the body. His name is doctor Tyler Panzner. And as you may have guessed, he’s one of the world’s leading experts on personalized medicine and genetics. He helps individuals personalize their vitamin, supplement, and lifestyle protocols to ditch the cookie cutter solutions and get lasting results. He does all of this through his holistic genetic health optimization practice. So, yes, clearly, he has a bias towards and in favor of understanding your genetics. But in this interview, I grill him on exactly how useful is this information to begin with.

Nick Urban [00:01:21]:
We cover a lot of the most popular and pressing topics, such as methylation and MTHFR, allergies and the histamine response, how genetics influence your ability to tolerate oxalates and other plant defense compounds. We explore certain substances like nitric oxide and lithium orotate, whether or not lithium is a longevity supplement. From this conversation, I discovered why green tea extract makes me feel bad. And since then, I’ve removed it from my supplement stack. We discuss the longevity genes, how to choose supplements the smart way, even if all the influencers and health experts are hyping up certain ingredients, whether or not they’ll actually work well for you, and, most importantly, what area of your own health you should prioritize and focus on to get the greatest results. You’ll find everything we discuss in the show notes for this episode, which will be at mindbodypeak.com slash the number 171. If you’d like to work with our guest and have him interpret your genetics and give you the expert walk through, you can use the code urban to save $100 on your consult. If that’s out of your budget, you can also use the tool that we both use and recommend, and it’s one of the few I’ve heard doctor Peter Attia recommend as well.

Nick Urban [00:02:58]:
I will put a link to that in the show notes. Go ahead and check it out, and let me know your thoughts. What’s cool about all this is that while you the expression of your genetics changes throughout your lifetime via methylation and acetylation, Your actual genetics themselves don’t. So once you decode your genetics once, this isn’t like blood lab testing where you have to keep coming back every quarter, every year to retest, to spend more money, and to see how your results change. This knowledge stays with you for life. So the earlier you decode your genome, the longer you’ll reap the rewards. Alright. Ladies and gentlemen, sit back, relax, and enjoy this wide ranging conversation with doctor Tyler Panziner.

Nick Urban [00:03:47]:
Doctor Panziner, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:03:50]:
Thank you so much for having me, my man. Super excited to be chatting.

Nick Urban [00:03:54]:
Me too. Because genetics is one of those topics that has become increasingly popular over the last decade or so, actually, since the Human Genome Project. And that is gonna be the main focus of our show today. We’ll talk about other related topics as well, but you specialize in that. And on your website, I saw that you call yourself holistic genetic health optimization. That’s your field, your go to. So let’s start today with, unusual non negotiables you’ve done for your health, your performance, and your bioharmony.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:04:26]:
I mean, I obviously got my sun exposure. I don’t want to call that being too too, an unusual, but that’s definitely nonnegotiable for me. And I did breath work this morning. So, again, I wouldn’t say that these are too particularly unusual. Breath work has actually been more of a recent addition over the past, month or so I’ve been adding in, that’s been really able to, help me a lot. Yeah. I did not do weight training today. I went for the walk, the sun exposure.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:04:52]:
Again, not too unusual, but trying to map out what the major goals are for the day. Right? Busy guy. Got a lot of stuff going on. There’s always more you can do, but what are the main things you wanna move forward throughout the day today?

Nick Urban [00:05:05]:
Yeah. I love that. I do the same thing, and I I come up with the 3 highest impact things, and then anything else I get to is a bonus. But on my morning walk, I’ll often do that and figure out, okay, if I do these things these three things, everything else afterward is icing on the cake, so to speak. Was your breath work this morning a more stimulating up breath work or more relaxing down style breath work?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:05:26]:
Yeah. So today was actually I do the breath work with my wife, and, she didn’t sleep the greatest. So we did one of the more energizing ones today. A lot of quick breaths, and I could feel, like, the tingling sensation in my hands, right, when you’re hyperventilating like that. So we did more of a stimulating one today, and it can kinda depend on, you know, what the day is, but today was more of a energizer. I think it was called energized 2 point o. We use one of the apps that just kind of not so much with the someone tell you to breathe in, breathe out, but just some light audio cues to make sure your, pacing is correct.

Nick Urban [00:05:58]:
Perfect. Well, a sloppy segue, but let’s go into, the world of genetics now. I’m curious. There are a lot of terms out there that make the world this world even more confusing. I’ll lay out some of them and you can elaborate just so we can build a foundation that people need to know before we start discussing and throwing around these terms. But there are SMPs, there’s genetic variations or variants. There are mutations, there’s DNA, there’s RNA. I don’t think I said polymorphisms.

Nick Urban [00:06:28]:
What else? Like, lay the foundation for us, please.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:06:31]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So genetic study, our genetic code, all of our cells has a code that’s comprised of 4 letters, a, t, c, or g. These are called nucleic acids, and they are instructions to make the proteins in our body. These proteins are the workhorses of our cells. They’re what make testosterone, transport testosterone, how you sense vitamin d, how your cells make collagen, what type of collagen you make, how you break down collagen. So all of these any process you could think of is carried out by these proteins, the workhorse the workers of our cells. Think of your each cell as a factory or a city.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:07:10]:
You need workers to keep the lights on and keep all these things going well. So, genetic variants are changes in that a, t, c, or g code. So changes in that genetic code. You mentioned the SMPs, single nucleotide polymorphisms. Those are the major type of genetic variant that I focus on. There’s other types as well, but that’s when a single letter instead of an a, you have a c, or instead of a g, you have a t. So that misspelling, not always, but sometimes can change the these proteins are made up of amino acids, which are made from the genes. That those instructions can be messed up and the protein can function a little differently.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:07:56]:
Maybe it doesn’t bind vitamin D as well. Maybe it doesn’t activate vitamin D as well. Maybe the receptor on how your brain senses serotonin, how your cell sense things. Those receptors can be hardwired to not sense these nutrients as well. So you can have all the nutrients you want in your blood, but your cells aren’t sensing it properly. So you’re still living with these chronic health issues in part due to those mutations. There’s also mutations that are called structural variations that are more wider scale. You could have big deletions where you delete big parts of a chromosome.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:08:30]:
Your DNA is coiled up into chromosomes. So we’re zooming out further now. Do you have one set of chromosomes from mom, one set of chromosomes from dad? Down syndrome is a duplication of a chromosome. So you have an extra chromosome there, an entire chromosome. You can have a duplication you copy paste, or you can cut and paste. You could cut a part of the chromosome out and invert it. So now it’s read the opposite way and reinserted. So it is a rabbit hole is an understatement for all these different things, but we’ll be focused on the SMPs, the SNPs, the single nucleotide polymorphisms.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:09:04]:
They’re very well studied, and they’re they’re relatively easy to check for a low cost of DNA assessment. Some of this more advanced DNA testing can be a 1,000 plus dollars just for the DNA testing itself. Forget about interpretation, building a plan. So that’s why with my practice, I focus more on the snips because I want this to be as accessible to as many people as possible.

Nick Urban [00:09:26]:
Yep. Snips being short for SNPs, single nucleotide polymorphisms. I’m sure he gets a lot, but ever since the human genome project went about sequencing the the body, There has been a lot of controversy about whether or not our genetics are all that useful for your average person. And I came across a topic in my own research a while back called Mendelian randomization. Can you explain what that is and why it’s significant?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:09:54]:
Clearly, I’m biased here. Right? But the, genetics are we have so much peer reviewed studies. We have so much peer reviewed studies that we show if you have this SNP, you’re more prone to this disease or that disease. So we could dive more into that. Of course, I’m biased here, but using the hard data, it can be an immensely powerful tool, and we could touch more on how the way we study these things may actually be a little bit flawed and undervalue their importance.

Nick Urban [00:10:26]:
It’s interesting because on that topic alone, I see genomics as a scapegoat for like a lot of issues. Like, oh, I can’t lose fat. It’s probably I have bad genes or I am not athletic. It’s because I have bad genes. I’ve the endurance gene rather than having the the genes that are gonna make me better at say power. And so I think there’s a the combination of those where it’s like the actual role is being misinterpreted because, like, there’s sure there’s a role of epigenetics and lifestyle that all matters, but then, again, you the point you make is that it’s both.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:11:00]:
It’s it’s definitely both. And, again, we talk about epigenetics. Epigenetics are how much or less you express that protein. But no matter what, that protein will always, always be mutated. But who’s the one turning the genes on and off? It’s proteins, which are made by genes. So it’s like the chicken versus the egg here. Right? But going back to the Mendelian randomization, so I said you get one set of chromosomes from mom. You get 23, x chromosome as well, and you get 23, the y chromosome from dad, so 46 in total.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:11:36]:
Let’s just say me, for example. I have 2 sets of the chromosomes, 1 from mom, 1 from dad. Each one of my sperm cells gets one set of the chromosomes. So if one set has a mutation and one doesn’t, that’s what we call heterozygous, different different zygosity. So there is a, based on Mendelian randomization, a 50 50 chance my sperm cell will either get the mutated gene, and then half my sperm should not have the mutated gene. So and that also goes with egg cells as well. So this is why when I work with families, you can have mom and dad have 10 mutations in a gene. Some of the kids may have 15.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:12:17]:
Some of the other kids may have 1 or 2 because it is random. So there are sometimes I work with families. Their certain children are much more similar based on what I’m looking at, and other times, they’re more different. There’s no way to tell for sure. So this is why when people ask me, my husband and I, or my wife and I worked with you, do we need to get my children done? And I say, well, you could infer some things. Right?

Nick Urban [00:12:40]:
Mhmm. But

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:12:41]:
if you’re really looking for optimal health, it would make sense to see how many of these things actually did get passed down. So that randomization is roughly 50.50 chance of what you’re gonna be getting.

Nick Urban [00:12:51]:
And what I understood about it is that it’s a really elegant way of determining how much of an outcome of phenotype is associated with genetics and how much of it is due to other factors.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:13:04]:
So being totally honest, I’m not the biggest on math and statistics, and I’ll tell you why. Because, you know, when we’re trying to gauge how important a mutation is, it doesn’t matter necessarily if you have one mutation. Each gene can be mutated in tens of thousands of different areas. So if you study a gene, if you have this vitamin d mutation, you’re prone to lower vitamin d. Let’s just say another mutation on that gene, another study says it’s linked to lower vitamin d and diabetes. Let’s just say another study links another SNP in that same gene to autoimmunity, and it lowers vitamin d. That’s all great, but what happens if you have all 3 of them? People aren’t really studying it this way. So you see what I’m saying? It’s like, if we can link one of these gene mutations to different diseases in humans, what if you have all 3? How much more significant is that? So you see what I’m saying? The way we study these things is kind of inherently flawed also because every person in that study is genetically different.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:14:08]:
Let’s say you have 10 people with the g one gene mutation, 10 people without. The people with it may have another 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 other mutations that are affecting their vitamin d. Ideally, you’d wanna sequence all the genes for everyone in every study. Now that’s not really feasible. Right? So I’m not saying that, like, I have the exact answer here, but that’s why I don’t work on grand scale giving sweeping recommendations. Of course, sunlight exercise, that’s a no brainer. Right? But I work on the individual basis. I work from the individual upwards because so many people have been through conventional holistic medicine.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:14:45]:
They try all the cookie cutter protocols that are based on a symptom or a label. They don’t feel better because you need a you protocol. There’s a reason why the line protocol from 4 different practitioners isn’t working because maybe there’s something else going on under the hood for your unique biology.

Nick Urban [00:15:01]:
I had that thought a long time ago when I was first looking into this to actually apply it to myself. Like, okay, how can I look at my own genome or what I know of my my genome and figure out my, like, predispositions and like, the areas I’ll be strongest and weakest? And I was like, okay. Well, if I have this SNP that increases my ability to, like, use vitamin d and these 3 over here decrease it, I need to know the magnitude of each of them. Plus, there’s a whole other variable of not knowing the other potential SNPs and parts that, like, we haven’t science hasn’t yet discovered and uncovered. And I know that I I look at some of these databases, and they’re constantly growing and increasing. So, obviously, we’re still learning a lot about all of this. So it’s, like, can I actually make a valid change based on my results?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:15:48]:
Yeah. And, you know, I I I’m the first to admit, there’s so much we don’t know about genetics. Right? And still wild to me how myself or other people in the space are changing lives based on the limited knowledge we do have. Right? And I’ll there’s no such thing as a perfect science. We’re always learning, and that’s why I can have a lot of genes pointing towards someone needing more of a certain supplement. They try it. They feel like crap. Guess what? We’ll try something else.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:16:13]:
Right? Because I nothing’s a 100% accurate. But, again, when I’m using natural over the counter supplements yeah, maybe they’re anxious for a day or a little nauseous. Then we remove it and they go back to normal. Right? We’re not utilizing heavy duty therapies, you know, pharmaceuticals, these types of things. So you’re absolutely right. And that’s what gets into what’s called polygenic risk scoring. Poly meaning multiple, genic meaning gene. So a lot of these genetic reports, they have a laundry list of different mutations.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:16:41]:
We checked 40 genes. But, again, you don’t know the magnitude, which is it’s very hard to study the magnitude. It is very, very difficult because, again, how do you study the magnitude of one SNP in a gene? When people in that study could have 1 to 10 functionally relevant, functionally relevant, meaning not every SNP actually changes how the protein functions, how the worker does its job. But let’s just say, for example, there’s, 10 mutations in a gene that we know affect how the protein works. They’re all linked to, let’s just say, vitamin d is an easy example. They’re all linked to lower vitamin d levels. If everyone in that study could have 0 to 10 of the mutations, how do you distinguish how much each individual mutation, each SNP has an effect on it? It it’s virtually again, I’m not the math guy. Right? I’m just the guy that says, okay.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:17:35]:
I’m used to seeing 1 to 3 of these. You have 12. That’s a big deal. Right? That’s a very high priority for you. So I wish it could be more quantitative like that. Right? But I look at it as higher priority, lower priority, and, you know, that’s, what’s been working thus far. And I’m excited as the future develops these things, but you see, like you mentioned, it’s so hard to study for certain this SNP lowers vitamin d that much. This does this much.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:18:03]:
To control for all of that, it’s it’s nearly impossible there.

Nick Urban [00:18:07]:
Yes. Exactly. And that’s why we haven’t made nearly as much progress as scientists were hoping. How whenever the human genome project came around.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:18:15]:
Yeah. And also too, back to the polygenic risk scoring too, you know, polygenic means so poly SNP scoring because we’re talking about multiple SNPs within one gene. So let’s just say there’s 10 different mutations in that one gene. Let’s just say it’s the gene in your vitamin d receptor. How well you could sense vitamin d? 0 to 10. And I’ve seen all ranges. What about the gene that activates vitamin d, that hydroxylates it into the form you need? Well, you can have 10 mutations there as well. What about how well your skin makes vitamin d from sunlight? I’m aware of 2 mutations that I checked there that have been studied.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:18:54]:
Is there an exact study to say, if you have this mutation, you will respond better to the supplement that targets that mutation? All of those studies aren’t out. Right? They’re not studying that. But reading between the lines here, you have a mutation that’s linked to lower vitamin d. You have lower vitamin D. It’s also linked to, you know, this X ailment. You have that ailment. Therefore you can’t make this proper form of vitamin D. Let’s give you that proper form.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:19:22]:
You’re looking at clues. You’ve never been regular vitamin d supplements do not raise your vitamin d levels. Why is that? Well, the gene that activates it doesn’t work as well. There are studies that show you’re 50 times more likely to not respond to regular vitamin d supplements because you can’t convert it. Therefore, I’ll recommend a preactivated one. Right? But you see how there’s not necessarily every study to prove every little, little last thing I’m doing. I use it as a guide. Right? But evidence based is very big nowadays, and people always want a massive, you know, clinical study, cohort data, randomized control for all these things.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:19:59]:
But when you’re really trying to innovate, you’re not gonna have all that. You need to use the anecdotes as data. And, again, I’m working on the individual basis. My readout is, does my client feel better? If they do, I’m on the right path. I’m not worried about applying that blanket recommendation to everyone else. So, yeah, the the poly SNP scoring, but the polygenic risk scoring would be you’re looking at other genes in the pathway. Right? So we’re already up to 30 plus mutations. The platform I use, for example, to see if you’re sensitive to oxalates, something found in plants, a dietary, irritant for some people.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:20:37]:
It takes over 816,000 different snips into account, and the AI does its thing. That’s the real future that’s the real future of where we’re going. That’s how I’m able to put so much value into just an hour long call with people because so much data gets funneled down and condensed into what we actually talk about.

Nick Urban [00:20:57]:
That makes a ton of sense. And back to the vitamin d example you were highlighting a minute ago, I was helping someone with their own protocol and they were telling me they were taking, I think it was 40,000 IU of vitamin d a day, which is a ton. And they did that for months. And their vitamin d level was still like on the low end of the reference range below. And I was like, there’s gotta be, like, a other major issue here. I thought it was genetic. I wasn’t sure. And it’s interesting to note that based on some of the genes, you can see whether the supplementation or even in the active form will work well for them, or if they’re better, they’re gonna do better outside and natural sunlight.

Nick Urban [00:21:37]:
And of course, natural sunlight has a bunch of other health benefits well beyond vitamin D as well. But like, people as that can help you understand and skip the trial and error of spending 6 months outside for 4 hours a day, 5 hours a day just to realize that it wasn’t doing anything you

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:21:53]:
And you you shouldn’t do that much at the end of the day. Right? Because, again, that that pathway we were talking about, it doesn’t matter whether you get it through sunlight, whether you make it through sunlight, whether you get it through food, or whether you supplement. All roads lead to that one gene. It’s called the c y p two r one gene. That’s what converts it. So two possible reasons, a, it could be that gene’s mutated and or if someone has an active infection. You have their inactive, the, the calcidiol that’s on blood work, and then you have the calcitriol, the active vitamin d. So if someone has an infection or inflammation going on, their vitamin d may look low on blood work because a lot of it is being activated.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:22:36]:
So that’s why I’ll recommend to people try to get that calcitriol level checked. I try to shoot for a 2 to 1 ratio of double the inactive to the active. The closer that approach is 1 to 1 or goes beyond that, more active than inactive, there’s inflammatory stress in the body. So you have people in the holistic space that say, you know, you don’t need vitamin d. It’s low because you have infections. And I’m like, that is true. I’m not saying that’s not true. But another explanation could be they have 5, 6, 7, 10 mutations in that sip 2 r one gene.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:23:10]:
People aren’t aware of that type of thinking. Right? People say, don’t take I have a real coming out. It drives me nuts. The people that are afraid of vitamin d supplementation. Excess can be an issue, but it’s so overblown and fear monger. There’s so much great data on it. But again, yeah, the two reasons there, maybe try a calcidiol supplement. There’s some in the US.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:23:30]:
There’s some overseas as well. It could be a prescription as well. They prescribe that for multiple sclerosis. Because guess what multiple sclerosis is linked to? Low vitamin d. So you skip the production and give you that form you need.

Nick Urban [00:23:43]:
Yeah. Aside from cost, is there any reason to test the inactive form of vitamin d?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:23:48]:
Let me rephrase that. So the inactive one is the one that’s normally checked. That’s the 25 o h. So the 25 hydroxylated vitamin d. That’s what’s usually checked. The 125 d or the 125 o h, the calcitriol. If I’m talking to somebody and hearing their symptoms and stuff, and I think there might be some sort of infection going on, or if they have a history of chronic infections, I will get that checked. I don’t check that with everyone across the board, but I think at least the blood work I the blood work ordering I use, I think it’s like 50 or $60 to get a check.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:24:21]:
So not crazy expense, but, again, different places may be more expensive. So it can be good to get a full picture. Is it completely necessary if you feel pretty good, you just wanna check your levels? No. Not necessarily.

Nick Urban [00:24:35]:
Gotcha. Alright. What are some of the common things that you see across people? Of course, there’s, like, a ton of bio individuality when it comes to genetics and genetic expressions. But are there any certain genes or topics or goals related to genetics that you see come up most often?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:24:53]:
Yeah. Of course. We are all genetically different. Right? But we are all 99.9% genetically similar. So, and here’s an interesting point too is people that come to me, I’m never the first doctor people see. Right? Obviously, the end of line, they tried everything else. So it’s very interesting that looking at some statistics in my practice, let’s just say a gene is prevalent in 25% of the population, a mutation that’s linked to some health issues or whatever. 75% of my clients have it because you see I’m I’m artificially selecting for people with worse genetics on average, because why has nothing else worked for you? Nothing else had worked for you because you’re more likely to have all those CYP 2 r one mutations, if that makes sense.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:25:39]:
So it’s like the things that I see that are more common, I don’t know if that’s directly, you know, correlative to the general population. Right? Let me think of it this way. What things do I really check with people across the board? I’d say the first third of my deep dive analysis, everyone gets the same stuff checked. A full methylation panel, vitamin d, histamine, usually some nitric oxide things. Those are some things I check across the board for people. Then beyond that and the everyone here listening has many, many mutations in all those pathways. It’s not even if it’s how many do you have and how many genes are they stacked on? Do you have a low number of mutations across many genes or are they all stacked up on one gene that’s a major, major bottleneck? So do you have a fewer number of more major issues or do you have less, more moderate issues? Right? So it’s not, if you have the mutation, do you have one mutation? Do you have 5? Do you have 10? Do you see how there’s different layers to this? So I see the same mutations every day in people. Right? It just depends where they stack up.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:26:48]:
I must say the PEMT gene is a gene that’s really caught my eye lately. This is a methyltransferase enzyme that’s involved with the synthesis of phosphatidylcholine from choline in the body. Phosphatidylcholine is extremely important for detoxification, liver, kidney, gallbladder health. It’s also linked to Alzheimer’s disease, very important for focus and memory. So when I see people with a lot of mutations in that gene, very commonly, they have a lot of detox issues. They have the mold. They have the parasites. It’s crazy.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:27:21]:
I like spook some people sometimes because I’m like, do you have pain in your upper right abdomen? They’re like, oh my god. Yes. You’re freaking me out. How do you know that? I’m like, well, you have 12 mutations in this gene, and this is linked to fatty liver disease. And what do you know? A lot of the times we’ll get an ultrasound. Oh my god. I had early early fatty liver. I was able to predict that just by looking at how many mutations they had.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:27:43]:
Now I’m not saying it’s a perfect science. Right? Like, I’m I’m not claiming that, but you I do see that correlate a lot with people, and they’ll do all these liver cleanses. They’ll do the liver detoxes and all these herbs and stuff, which, a, can have side effects. But, b, now we have data. Your cells crave more phosphatidylcholine, liver, kidney, gallbladder health. Let’s give you exactly that. Right? These other herbs and stuff can help the liver, but let’s give you what you’re actually missing first. That’s my approach, and that’s why I love utilizing the genetics to guide the way.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:28:20]:
Mhmm.

Nick Urban [00:28:21]:
Doctor Panziner, is there a reason that you’d want you would choose not to supplement with, say, phosphatidylcholine? Because, for example, I was just in India. I had a lot of omega 6 seed oils. I do I could to protect myself against them, but to maintain and improve the integrity of my cell membranes, I’ve been supplementing that for a bit. I haven’t checked out my PEMT, and I’m curious if there’s, like, a reason that kinda like with methylation, people jump to the activated forms, methylated forms of the vitamins. Is there a reason you choose not to supplement with PC instead of choline?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:28:52]:
I’m not aware of any major contraindications genetic wise. But, of course, if someone is eating a lot of organ meats, that’s very high in phosphatidylcholine. Eggs are very high in phosphatidylcholine. So if someone eats a lot of those foods and they don’t have a lot of mutations there, I may not recommend it. Now are there instances where I recommend regular choline over phosphatidyl? No. Because that conversion of choline to phosphatidylcholine, it’s a two way street. It’s reversible. So we can give you the preactivated choline, and you can always convert it back if you need it.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:29:28]:
And also, we wanna make sure that can be incorporated right into the cell membranes if needed. And if your body doesn’t eat it there, it can convert into choline and be used elsewhere. If someone eats good amount of organ meats and eggs, again, we may dive deeper, maybe eggs or organ meats, maybe issues for other reasons. Right? But if they eat a lot of these things and they don’t have a lot of mutations in that gene, I’ll say maybe we don’t need that. If they eat those foods but they have a lot of mutations there, I’m still gonna say, let’s give you a nice big dose of that directly and see how much better you feel.

Nick Urban [00:30:01]:
And does that apply to other forms of choline supplementation as well? Like, there’s choline, the tartrate, and there’s also alpha GPC and CDP choline.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:30:09]:
Yeah. So I know the choline bar tar by tartrate, really not absorbed very well at all. It’s the cheapest form. I I call that pretty much garbage. You know, CDP choline and alpha GPC, these can be used more directly, more instantaneously to make the acetylcholine neurotransmitter. Right? So depending on the person personally, if I take those, it can make me feel a little groggy and sleepy. So choline can be shown to help with sleep. So I think a low dose of phosphatidylcholine each day, liposomal.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:30:40]:
I don’t have a lot of mutations there, but I noticed it, like, lubricates my brain. Dopamine is more of the, oh my god. I can’t wait to do all this stuff. Choline, I’ve noticed, is more of once I’m starting something, I can stay locked into it longer. Like, I have all these browser tabs. I’m I’m doing math this part of my brain. I gotta remember to email this person. I gotta remember what I’m having for lunch.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:31:04]:
All these things, the browser tabs, I noticed the choline really lets me stay on task better and not forget these things more.

Nick Urban [00:31:12]:
Well, also, the other one we’ve circled around a bit is methylation and MTHFR. That’s like the big topic in genetics, and it has been for a long time. Every single tool you use will spit out report that has to do with methylation. Can you explain what that is? I think I’ve heard a stat that, like, 40% of people have mutations there. What’s important to know about it?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:31:33]:
Yeah. So first off, I would say at least 90% of my clients have an MTHFR mutation. So and, again, looking at the stats. Right? Because again, they’re they’re coming to me. Right? Because the regular stuff isn’t working. So methylation is a foundational process in every single one of our cells. The main functions of it, a lot of people are aware of to turn genes on and off. That’s one aspect.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:31:55]:
It’s also used to make neurotransmitters. It’s also used to make glutathione. Those are some of the three main functions there. So if you have toxicities or oxidative stress in your body, your body will use methylation to make glutathione. So you need that glutathione to fight things off. A lot of people will just supplement with glutathione, but let’s help your body make more of its own glutathione, unless there’s genetic mutations in those steps. So if you’re fighting off some sort of oxidative stress, your body won’t be able to make neurotransmitters properly. That’s why you may not feel as well brain fog, these types of things.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:32:34]:
So you may not be able to turn the right genes on or off. For example, a lot of people talk about, you know, trauma, you know, somatic work, you know, inner healing, spiritual healing, whatever you wanna call it. That trauma that people experience is an epigenetic phenomenon. Something happened to you. The gene expression got really messed up. But for example, if you’re fighting off a pathogen or toxicity and you’re burning through glutathione, your body healing from these things from trauma is switching the bad genes off and the good genes on again. I mean, oversimplify, but you get what I’m saying here. So if you’re constantly needing more glutathione to fight something off, your body won’t have the methylation resources to switch the right genes on and off.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:33:19]:
So you see what I’m saying while you’re fighting these things off, you’re never gonna fully heal. So your body will pull will prioritize for glutathione production because it wants to get rid of whatever bad thing shouldn’t be in the body. And it will sacrifice proper neurotransmitter production and proper epigenetic expression to get

Nick Urban [00:33:38]:
there. So if you have a mutation with MTHFR or other methylation mutations that make you suboptimal, instead of taking an antioxidant like glutathione, which will help some of the issues, but then you’ll still not be optimizing for the other main functions of methylation. Is that right?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:34:00]:
Yeah. More or less, yes. And, you know, we could talk about too, like, you know, glutathione is high in sulfur. It contains sulfur in it. Sulfur is a very important molecule. We all we need it to survive, but a lot of people, certain methylation mutations that help make glutathione also help you break down sulfur. So if someone is very sulfur sensitive, I’m very sensitive to sulfur. A lot of my clients are.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:34:26]:
They may get headaches or brain fog or rashes. I’ve had clients break they’re like, their skin peels off from an IV of glutathione because it’s so much sulfur in their body. And then their cells, their mass cells release histamine. So it’s almost like an allergic reaction, if you will. So I have used glutathione with clients, but I don’t think long term it makes sense unless you have a mutation in that exact step. Right? We wanna give you the ingredients so your cells don’t make too too much of it. Yeah. I like and just because you have MTHFR doesn’t mean you need a bunch of methyl folate.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:35:00]:
There’s a lot of other genes that come into play. It’s a cycle. Which part of the circle do you wanna feed? Right? And the genes can help guide us. We want more of this thing here, a little bit of that thing, and that’ll work for you versus less of this, more of that for somebody else. You know, a lot of the people in the genetic space, just look at a gene and just slap on up, take this nutrient because you can’t make more of that. It is more complex than that. You need to talk to people, see how their mind is working. Certain personality types I can tell may not do well on high doses there, just from all the people that I’ve seen.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:35:33]:
We could go more into that sulfur stuff too. I think that’s a big one that I see a lot. People make mistakes with, NAC. That’s the building block for glutathione that has the sulfur. Glutathione, alpha lipoic acid, MSM, sulforaphane. These are all commonly used supplements that are high in sulfur. Some foods that are high in sulfur, garlic, onions, eggs, cruciferous vegetables, brussels sprouts, broccoli, arugula, organ meats. These are all high in sulfur.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:36:05]:
So I noticed for myself, if I have too much garlic or onions, I get a headache. I get brain fog. I get the symptoms of high histamine. I work with so many people. Again, they’re put on a garlic pill for their detox. Right? But they’re sulfur sensitive. I take them off of that. Their life changes in 2 days.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:36:21]:
A naturopath put them on that. Now the naturopath meant well. Right? But they’re not educated about the potential risks of these supplements. So if any of you listening here have brain fog, headaches, anxiety, insomnia, maybe some hives, and you take some of these supplements or eat a lot of these foods, I would maybe try consuming less of them. Molly Bedenum or everyone calls it molybdenum. I call it Molly Bedenum. This is a micronutrient that your genes use to break down sulfur in the body. So you can either consume less sulfur and or take more molybdenum to help you break down sulfur.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:36:58]:
That fixed the majority of my brain fog issues I had throughout my life because I ate a lot of these foods. Coffee is also high in histamine that can raise that in the body. So imagine someone wakes up in the morning. They have their cup of coffee, which is high in histamine. They have their apple cider vinegar. It’s high in histamine. They have their garlic pill that’s high in sulfur. They have their liposomal glutathione.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:37:21]:
No wonder why they have brain fog headaches the whole day. Do you see how easy that could stack up? But to the untrained eye, it’s all great health supplements.

Nick Urban [00:37:30]:
There’s a lot of different ways I wanna take this, including to go deeper on methylation and then also on sulfur, n a c, and histamine. To put a bow on methylation first, I noticed that I do have MTHFR. I was suspicious of it. I didn’t think it really impacted me very much till my recent blood work. I saw saw that I had really high levels of homocysteine, at least really high for me. And I added Methylfolate, and I was wondering if that was a good idea or if I should look at other things in addition to that. I also am curious about other forms of methylation support. Like, if I took, say, TMG or creatine, I think alpha GPC.

Nick Urban [00:38:12]:
There’s a bunch of different ways of increasing, like, the methyl group bioavailability or, like, availability throughout the body. So I wasn’t sure what the best approach is there. What would you recommend?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:38:23]:
Yeah. Of course. I haven’t seen the full genes. Right? So it can be a 100% certain, but, trying some Methylfolate if you have MTHFR, I don’t think that’s a bad idea. I just think a lot of people think a lot of these doses are crazy high on these supplements. I like starting people on on under 1 milligram of methyl folate, see how they respond. Now, what are other things that can help lower homocysteine? You mentioned TMG betaine. That is trimethylglycine.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:38:53]:
The more methyl groups you add, the more it lowers homocysteine. Now these methyl groups, they fuel methylation. Right? But part of the methylation process also helps you convert noradrenaline into adrenaline. So if you’re very sensitive to adrenaline, I break down adrenaline very slow genetically due to my mutations. That’s why I got a lot to say. That’s why, you know, that’s why my brain go, go, go. That’s also why I’m prone to anxiety because I’m a very type a, you know, very stimulated person. And if I take too much of these methyl vitamins, whether it’s methyl folate, methyl b 12, TMG, right, because the m is for the methyl there, I can feel overstimulated, irritable, anxious.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:39:39]:
They have a little bit of a temper with people and, like, that’s not me normally. So TMG does that very, very well, but also regular glycine does as well. I love regular glycine. My body can convert it. My body can methylate it on its own, but I don’t want to introduce more methyl groups to my body. Choline, phosphatidylcholine also lowers homocysteine. So you see how, you know, you have the methyl folate, the methyl b 12, taurine can help as well, glycine, trimethylglycine, but then you also can have people that are overmethylating. Their homocysteine’s too low.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:40:17]:
It’s more rare, but I do see it. Things like Methylfolate, the things that we just recommended would make them feel a lot worse. So something like SAM e or even think it’s a vitamin b 3, niacinamide, NMN. A lot of people talk about NAD for longevity. NMN NAD raises homocysteine. Now it’s healthy, but you wanna monitor that. Right? So a lot of people will pair it. I’ll pair people that with TMG or glycine.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:40:46]:
So you kinda counteract it. Right? You don’t wanna be on that long term raising up the homocysteine. So it is a delicate balancing act. And now another one I really like too is lithium Orotate. This helps you transport b 12 and b 9 folate inside of your cells. Some people don’t feel much from b complexes. You give a little lithium orotate. Boom.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:41:07]:
Now they feel it because you’re getting the b vitamins into your cells. That’s where methylation occurs. And this is why, obviously, I use, blood work in my practice. But I take it with a grain of salt, a, because that matter what’s in the blood, not what’s in your cells, and also how well your cell’s sensing what’s in the blood. Right? So I work with people. We add in lithium. Their b 12 levels go down a bit, but that’s because it’s leaving the blood and it’s going into their cells. Right? So you gotta kinda take that with a little bit of a grain of salt.

Nick Urban [00:41:39]:
That’s interesting. I am a big fan of microdosed lithium. Do you like it in a larger dose?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:41:44]:
Yeah. So I lithium aortate changed my life, honestly. I rarely I rarely go over 5 milligrams for myself personally. They sell up to 20 milligram pills. Changed my life, man. Like, the the genes that break down adrenaline that are slower for me, lithium speeds them up. So people take Xanax, right, to calm down. It’s blasting your body with calming signals.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:42:06]:
Lithium literally helps you break down the adrenaline that’s causing the issue. So you see how that is, like, remarkable that it literally helps you break down the adrenaline. People talk about high cortisol. What raises your cortisol? Adrenaline spikes raise your cortisol. So if we could help your body chew up adrenaline faster, your cortisol levels will go down long term. So I use that a lot, and I’ll adjust it based on my stress levels. I’ll do 5 milligrams, then I’ll go down to 1. Maybe I’ll do 1 in the morning, 1 at night.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:42:39]:
Maybe I won’t take any for a little bit. But that is my number one go to. You know, if I overdo the caffeine, you know, or if I overdo it a little bit, I love that to really help smooth things out. Or if I’m really triggered by something or if I’m really overwhelmed before talk or something, I’ll take a little bit of that.

Nick Urban [00:42:55]:
I’ve seen research showing a pretty strong association between, lithium levels, the water and natural water, and longevity also, and it makes sense.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:43:05]:
Oh, I’ve not seen the longevity one. I’ll look into that. Interesting. So you’re talking, like, overall all cause all cause mortality.

Nick Urban [00:43:10]:
Yeah. Exactly. And then also, I like I haven’t considered it as part of, like, taking the edge off of a stimulant like caffeine. I currently use either taurine or glycine or L theanine, but I haven’t just looked

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:43:24]:
into that. It’s just different mechanisms. Right? So taurine, glycine, theanine, they all act on the GABA system. So that is pumping the brakes on the brain. Think of lithium as letting off the gas. It’s like there’s times I take lithium with glycine, with CBD because I’m really, really overwhelmed. Not every day. It’s rare I combine them.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:43:49]:
Right? But you see how they accomplish the same goal of lowering excitation. It just depends. Do you wanna let off the gas, or do you wanna pump the brakes?

Nick Urban [00:43:58]:
And then to add some commentary, I think we have to distinguish this form of lithium orotate and the dose compared to I think it’s carbonate and the much higher dose that’s prescribed as antipsychotic?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:44:15]:
Yeah. Antipsychotic. It’s used for bipolar depression as well. That’s an older form. It’s not absorbed as well, so you need much higher doses. 500 to a 1000 milligrams. And it lithium is lithium. Right? But it doesn’t get to the brain as easy.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:44:32]:
It doesn’t stay there for longer. There are more side effects because you need a much higher dose overall. I think as the years go by, studies are coming out. I think lithium aortate will replace bicarbonate, in the clinic for prescriptions. I don’t know the exact conversion of how many milligrams of aortate compares to bicarbonate. Right? Like, is 50 milligrams or take the same as a 1,000? I don’t know the exact conversion there off the top of my head. That is for these clinical psychiatric, you know, neurocognitive, disorders. And I’ve actually had some people that are on that form talking with their prescribing physician.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:45:10]:
We end up switching them to Ortepe, and they feel a lot better because there are less side effects there. So if you’re listening now and you’re on lithium bicarbonate, I’m not saying throw it out the window and just go be your own rogue vigilante doctor, talk to your prescribing physician. But, yeah, I think that 1 milligram of lithium orte, I noticed it works better with some food. With the meal, I think it’s a very safe thing. I think everyone can try. Some people don’t feel great on it. They may feel a little too tired. Right? Because it’s lowering your adrenaline.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:45:38]:
But take it before bed, it can really be a truly life changing supplement for stabilizing your mood as well as, adrenaline, neuroplasticity, whole host of beneficial, mechanisms there.

Nick Urban [00:45:50]:
So one of the reasons the compliance with that medication is pretty low is because, yes, it can help stabilize mood, but it also brings down the ceiling on, like, euphoria and in the clinical cases, mania. Would the lower dose of lithium aortate, like, blunt how pleasure and ability to enjoy life at the same time?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:46:11]:
That is a great question. This is actually something I’ve been noticing myself. You know, when I go through periods of high stress, I’ll do 5 milligrams of lithium each night, aortate, for, you know, sometimes a few weeks. Right? And then I notice when I come down usually, I’ll go down. I don’t it’s not a long week. If I go from 5 milligrams for a few weeks to none, I may feel a little bit of a rebound. Right? So I’ll go from, like, 5 to 3 to 2 to 1 over a few days. And then when I come off, I have noticed when I’m on dosages over 2 milligrams or so this is for me personally.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:46:47]:
I notice there is a slight blunting of it’s very hard to put my finger on it. Don’t get me wrong. I took 5 milligrams last night. I’m a very happy person today. Right? It’s not like I’m not like you know, but I do notice it blunts certain subtle feelings of joy. Could I live my whole life how I feel right now? Yes. It is very, very subtle, but you did ask that. I haven’t shared this yet, but, like, that’s a good point you brought up.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:47:13]:
I personally and I’m very in tune with my body. I’m very sensitive to things. Some people take 20 milligrams. Like, I don’t notice anything with or without it. And I’m like, that’s crazy to me. But, hey, everyone’s different. Right? So I’m very in tune with myself. I have noticed that.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:47:27]:
That being said, the trade off for how it stabilizes me and how I could deal with the stress, it is an absolute landslide victory for I’m gonna take the 5 milligrams when I needed. Right? But then I do I’m a big fan of lowest effective doses. So I will titrate downwards because when calamity strikes, when part of my friends when hits the fan and I need that stabilization, I don’t wanna already be mindlessly taking 5 milligrams, and now I need 10. Right? I want my body to be sensitive to it. I think this the the one to 2 milligram range, I think that’s totally fine long term daily. I’m gonna be taking lithium on and off throughout my entire life. I think it’s that great. A lot of great data coming out for for any cognitive decline, neurodegeneration on top of just how I feel day to day.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:48:12]:
But, yes, at those higher dosages, it’s not so much when I’m on it. I notice it. It’s when I come off of it completely, I notice. I just feel a little subtle flavor of joy and excitement that I haven’t felt in a bit. That being said, though, overall, I’m very happy on it.

Nick Urban [00:48:30]:
And you originally mentioned that you use this in reference to a gene that had to do with your endocrine system or your neuroendocrine system. Is that right?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:48:39]:
So couple different gene targets this hits on why I use it. So the COMT and MAO genes, these are the genes that break down adrenaline.

Nick Urban [00:48:47]:
Yeah. Those are both important to discuss because those seem to be genes that come up all the time when it comes to, like, general reports and purse I I guess it also, like, dovetails in, like, personality.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:48:57]:
No. Abs massive effect in personality. And the the MAO gene breaks down monoamine neurotransmitters, serotonin, dopamine, noradrenaline, adrenaline. COMT breaks down dopamine, adrenaline, noradrenaline, so not serotonin. So the COMT one specifically, when I I have a double mutation there. And I can tell very quickly if someone has a double COMT mutation, because, I guess, sort of like myself, very usually very good with words, you know, not always, of course, usually more outgoing, more type a. And, you know, if any of you guys listening here, you know, my life has always been, Tyler, relax, Tyler, breathe, Tyler, let it go. Tyler, you’re overthinking things.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:49:49]:
You know, just let it go. You know, what happened happened. If that sounds like you, you likely have a COMT or possibly MAO mutations. You can’t think your way into lowering your adrenaline. You’re limited by how well your genes work. Of course, you can do breathing exercise. Those types of things can help, but it is an uphill battle. So lithium speeds those up.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:50:13]:
The d r d two gene, the dopamine 2 receptor, This is a specific flavor of dopamine signaling that if that receptor doesn’t work as well, you don’t make as much of the receptor. So this has been linked in peer reviewed studies to increase risk taking, anxiety, depression, obesity, addiction, because you’re not getting the dopamine. You’re you’re not getting high off your own supply as well, if that makes sense. So you go and seek out these other things. This is proven in studies. A rat study showed that lithium, it doesn’t help you grow more of these receptors, but it helps the ones you do have be more sensitive. So I have that mutation as well. So that’s another reason why I think I respond so well.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:50:55]:
It helps that dopamine receptor sense dopamine better. That also helps lower my adrenaline, and it also can stimulate the serotonin 1 a receptor. My receptor doesn’t work as well. So you see there’s like 4 different genes here. Lithium addresses all 4, and that’s what I really love doing for people. And I think what how my work is different is that I’m a pharmacologist. So I find instead of giving you 4 different supplements for those things, we can find one thing that addresses as many of them as we can while also just as importantly, not clashing with other gene mutations.

Nick Urban [00:51:29]:
Yes. That’s a important point to underscore. It when you start introducing multiple different ingredients and supplements, you get into the world of, polypharmacology and everything gets more complicated, and it’s not always summative. Summative? Yeah.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:51:45]:
Additive. Yeah.

Nick Urban [00:51:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. Additive. Yeah. Sometimes you have, like, negative interactions between the 2 or, like, competing mechanisms where they act differently on the same same target.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:51:55]:
Sometimes not necessarily competing. Sometimes it could be synergistic too. Like, I’ll give you an example. You know, you take methyl vitamins. It helps you make more adrenaline. You’re also taking green tea extract for polyphenols. They’re good for us. Right? We should get more of them.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:52:13]:
Well, that green tea extract also blocks the COMT gene. So not only are you making more adrenaline from the methyl vitamins, but now you’re trapping that adrenaline in your brain with the green tea extract. I’ve made that mistake before. Oh my god. It was a frighteningly miserable day for me. I couldn’t sleep. I was wired. I was anxious.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:52:34]:
I was paranoid. It was very, very rough. So you see how those are technically synergizing to raise these things, but you gotta be careful because people could be on 3, 4, 5, 6 different supplements that all raise adrenaline. And their main issue is anxiety. But all these supplements also help with liver support. They help with detox. They help with gut inflammation. That’s why their coach or doctor put them on these supplements.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:53:02]:
But I see it as adrenaline, adrenaline, adrenaline, adrenaline. We should be steering clear of those.

Nick Urban [00:53:09]:
As a pharmacologist, do you will just look at their molecules and know how they’re gonna interact in the body, or how do you approach that? Is there an easy way?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:53:16]:
So I’m much more of a biology guy than a chemistry guy. I wish I, you know, I wish I paid more attention in chemistry. That’d be more of the cap. Like, I don’t look at functional groups and, yeah, that’s gonna do this for sure. Right? It’s more so reading papers, reading studies, and kind of having an encyclopedia in my head of, okay. These are a bunch of supplements that chelate iron and copper out of the body. If you have high levels of those, these make sense. If you have normal or low levels, you should steer clear of these.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:53:44]:
These are supplements that can raise adrenaline. These are supplements that are high in sulfur. So I kinda more so group these things based on reading studies, not so much looking at the actual molecule. But that is absolutely a good way to do that because I’ve been thinking about, you know, think of supplements as a Swiss army knife. You want the Swiss blade. You don’t want the screwdriver. Right? So how do you screen for supplements that have the things you want without the things you don’t want? What I mean by that is pretty much all polyphenols block MAO or COMT. So if I wanna get more polyphenols in and I’m not worried about food amounts.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:54:22]:
Right? It’s more so the concentrated extracts that are the issue for people. How do I get more polyphenols in without feeling more anxious in high doses? The structural component of the molecule that has the beneficial antioxidant effects, it might be the same structural part that blocks MAO and COMT, which means you may not be able to separate the switch blade from the screwdriver. Right? But that’s where these structural studies could really, shed some light on things.

Nick Urban [00:54:53]:
So there’s a very popular polyphenol antioxidant called resveratrol. Yep. And I saw a study the other day, showing that it increases cortisol, the stress hormone biosynthesis. And is that at all related to Yes. So

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:55:07]:
Resveratrol is a very potent MAO inhibitor. And now here, you go one step further. People see that Resveratrol Cortisol. But we go there’s always another layer you can go into. You’re slowing down the breakdown of adrenaline. So the adrenaline spikes, the adrenals then start making cortisol. Right? So, technically, the adrenaline is the middleman between this. So one of my best friends, he, he, he’s like me.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:55:33]:
He’s slow COMT, you know, prone to overstimulation and stuff. And he was feeling so much more anxious. And I asked him, what supplements are you on? And I already told him, I’m like, bro, like, he’s not in the science space. I’m like, bro, like, I’m your best friend. Let me know whenever you take a new supplement. Right? If it turns out he started taking resveratrol from the Andrew Huberman podcast because it’s good for longevity. And I’m not saying it’s not good for those things. Right? But what else is this supplement doing? He removed it.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:56:02]:
It took 2 days to wash it out of his system and he was back to normal. And he’s like, oh my God, I’ve never started a new supplement without talking to you again. Because again, just like you mentioned, it can have certain benefits. These are Swiss army knives. We need to make sure not only does it have the tool you need, but we gotta make sure it doesn’t have a tool that your body is at risk or susceptible to negative effects from them.

Nick Urban [00:56:25]:
Let’s go back to some of the other things we’ve discussed so far. And I wanna go into food intolerances with you because you mentioned oxalates a while back, and that is a common, like, anti nutrient in certain foods, and some people cannot handle them well. Are there a lot of different food intolerances and chemicals within food that are dictated by genes because I also know that there’s certain bacteria in the gut that are capable of breaking down some of these things, like oxalate specifically. And if you have and make those bacteria proliferate, then you’re able to handle them better. And then if you wipe them out conversely with antibiotics or something, then you’re gonna have trouble even if you have better oxalate handling genes.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:57:11]:
Yeah. So, I think let’s first start off with an intolerance versus an allergy. They’re very different things. A lot of people confuse the 2. So a food intolerance is basically when the body can’t digest certain proteins or components of food as well. That can be a more transient thing. It’s it’s a digestive issue. It’s not so much an immune system issue.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:57:39]:
Allergies are when your body recognizes a certain protein, no matter how much you digest it, as bad. So that causes an actual histamine response. So you’re absolutely right. Genes are not the only thing that dictate intolerances. Your gut health. Cleaning up your gut can help a lot with food intolerances. Allergies can stick around a little bit longer because it’s a body wide immune system issue going on. So the example I like to give is gluten.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:58:08]:
You can have gluten intolerances. Celiac is a gluten intolerance. It’s when your body mounts an autoimmune reaction against small intestines. Well, I don’t think anyone should be having gluten personally. I think it’s inflammatory to people. I don’t think it’s if it’s messing you up, it’s how much. I do also agree that in the US, at least, a lot of pesticides can make gluten sensitivity worse. We do know for a fact there are genes linked to not just celiac, but also non celiac gluten sensitivity.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:58:38]:
Gluten sensitivity testing, it’s very archaic. It’s hard people think either you have celiacs or you’re fine. It’s much more than that. But what’s interesting is these are not allergies. I have gluten sensitivity, non celiac. Mine goes to my brain. I get a lot of brain fog, headaches, fatigue. My eyes will feel a little itchy, kinda weird.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:59:00]:
But when I got my skin prick test for allergies, I was negative for a wheat allergy. A gluten allergy is when your mouth will swell shut. You know, you’ll start sneezing a regular allergy. So you see how even within one, you know, food item, right, you can have different types of responses there. Oxalates are definitely an intolerance as well. Again, there’s that polygenic risk report I use to test that. And what’s cool is 8 out of 10 kidney stones are formed from oxalate crystals. So when people come up positive for that report, kind of how I ask, do you get pain in your upper right abdomen? They’re like, yes.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [00:59:37]:
How’d you know? I’ll ask, does you or anyone in your family have history of kidney stones? And the majority of the time they’re like, yeah, my brother. Oh, oh, yeah, I do. Why? I’m like, well, you see what we’re connecting here. Right? Could have, of course, like mentioned certain probiotic strains, certain gut infections can make oxalate tolerance worse. So again, I’ll never claim genes are all that matters. It’s just the least explored or understood thing when it comes to health, in my opinion. Like, how many gut health coaches are there? How many mindset coaches? How many mold and heavy metal coaches are there? But how many people are really diving into the more holistic side of the genetics? Right? It’s not more or less important. It’s just much less explored and utilized, and it leaves a lot of potential healing, rapid healing because we’re crystal clear on what we need on the table.

Nick Urban [01:00:25]:
You’ve also mentioned histamine a number of times. Can you break down what that is and why it’s important to look into?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:00:32]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So histamine, people think of antihistamines, like Claritin or Allegra or Zyrtec. When your cells come across an allergen, whether it’s, I don’t know, whether it’s shellfish or whether it’s peanuts or whether it’s maybe gluten or pollen, your cells your mast cells release a lot of histamine. Histamine is released during inflammation as well. So your body releases that to signal to your immune system to go clear up whatever bad things in your body. An allergy is your body recognizing a normally inert substance as bad. The penis is not gonna kill you.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:01:08]:
Right? But, like, let’s just say if you had, like, a mosquito bite, your body wants to kind of break that down. That’s where you get the swelling there. That’s from histamine. So histamine is also made in our bodies as a neurotransmitter. It’s responsible for wakefulness. They use antihistamines for sleep and anxiety medications. So what happens if your histamine is too high? It could be linked to anxiety. It could be linked to sleeplessness.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:01:33]:
It could be linked to brain fog, headaches, fatigue, arthritis. Every inflammatory disease is linked to high histamine. So, I mentioned sulfur earlier to make your cells release histamine. So I have to think of your histamine as a bucket. What is filling up your histamine bucket? I’ll give you an example. I can have broccoli and feel okay. Allergy season comes around. My cells are releasing histamine because of pollen and stuff.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:02:03]:
My bucket’s more filled. I can eat that same broccoli meal, and now I’ll get a headache because you see how the bucket is already starting out more filled. So I take the broccoli, the sulfur releases the histamine. Once you start viewing it that way, you can really understand why you don’t feel very well. His understanding my histamine completely changed my life. That was the root cause of my brain fog, of a lot of my anxiety, of a lot of my sleep issues. So, again, if I have sulfur foods for dinner, I won’t sleep well that night because the sulfur releases histamine, which wakes me up. I’ve gotten people off of sleep medications by getting rid of their tomato sauce they have each evening.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:02:45]:
Like, how many people have pasta with tomato sauce, which is high in histamine, with garlic and onions in there, high in sulfur? So I work with some Italian clients. They’re like, you’re telling me to get rid of the the the tomato sauce. How dare you? But they remove it. They sleep better. I’m not saying everyone’s gonna get off their meds by getting rid of tomatoes. Right? But I’m talking sharing experiences with clients that I’ve had. So watching out for high sulfur, high histamine foods around the evening time if you have sleep issues can be a very easy low hanging fruit to improve your sleep. So the histamine is a big factor for a lot of different people when we have pathogens in our bodies.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:03:22]:
Old or parasites or viruses, Your body releases histamine. That’s why you’re exhausted when you get sick. That’s why you may have a runny nose when you get sick because it’s high histamine. So when people tell me I have a runny nose all the time and I have allergies, oh my god. I see the pattern here. There’s genes involved in how well you make histamine, how well your cells will be dumping the histamine, how well you break down histamine. Maybe you’re missing the ingredient that your gene uses to break down histamine. So could go whole rabbit hole with that, but, like, that’s kinda what I focus on because different people need different things to lower their histamine.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:03:58]:
There’s no one histamine protocol. I bill I work to build a u protocol.

Nick Urban [01:04:02]:
I thought that histamine also works as a neurotransmitter to increase wakefulness and alertness. Why would, if you’re sick, increasing levels of histamine make you tired?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:04:12]:
So that’s a good point. Great point. So what I’ve noticed is it can kinda rob you of mental energy. It’s hard to describe. You are right. It is for wakefulness. I think if you’re in the sweet spot and if you go over a little bit, it can do that. Let me put it this way.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:04:27]:
It’s more of a wired, but tired feeling. Like I feel mentally tired. I feel like I could nap. Which I’d never feel like that, but I can’t actually fall asleep. So people feel tired, but they can’t actually sleep. So it’s like, I guess, too much of the histamine, it’s kinda overloading the system.

Nick Urban [01:04:44]:
A while back, I wanted to understand and try to recreate the same mechanisms of the prescription drug, modafinil, for wakefulness and alertness and studying and everything. And I was looking into them, and one of them, it seems to work by increasing histamine. So I got the amino acid histidine, and I used it and along with other things too, but that was the one that supposedly increases histamine levels. And I did notice that, like, it certainly had an energizing and luminous promoting effect for me.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:05:14]:
Yeah. And I’ve used metafinol in the past. And before I knew about my histamine issues, I would notice I would have weird brain fog. So I would feel the dopaminergic buzz. Right? Like, I wanna do stuff, but I would also feel brain fog. And turns out it was because I was eating foods that are high in sulfur, high in histamine. So you see how the medication can do that. The supplements can do it.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:05:37]:
The foods can do it. I’ve tried histidine as well, and I took a low dose, but it was way too much for me. I felt like I ate something I was allergic to. I instantly overshot it for, like, 2 or 3 hours. I had really bad brain fog. I do check mutations for histidine requirements. Histidine is really interesting because you may think if someone has histamine issues this is a tongue twister. Why would you want more histidine? But your body also uses histidine to make metallothioneine, the body’s number one heavy metal detoxification protein, as well as hemoglobin.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:06:12]:
So this is a theory of mine. If people are very histamine sensitive, they dump a lot of histamine. They may run out of histidine, especially if you if you have mutations in absorbing it. So I’ve seen people with lower with with histamine issues. They have lower hemoglobin. I think because the body is using the histidine preferentially for histamine synthesis. But guess what? You’re you may be opening yourself up to heavy metal issues, right, or hemoglobin issues or fatigue issues. So that’s rarely a first line of treatment I have for people.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:06:43]:
But if people do have a higher need for histidine, if we do try it, we start very, very low and slow. Lower levels of histidine have been linked to a lot of gut issues, have been linked to skin issues, so it can help with certain individuals, but it’s a very fine balancing act. Right? Because it is a direct precursor to histamine. Did you notice any, like, brain fog? Like, did you notice only benefits from the histidine?

Nick Urban [01:07:05]:
I didn’t notice brain fog. That’s making me think that if you were to use a very low dosage of it, you might be able to tell if you have histamine issues in general, whether it’s caused by allergies or genetics.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:07:14]:
Yep. So and then the cool part too also with histamine is different genes encode different receptors that are expressed in different organs. So I don’t check all these in my practice because only so far you can go. Right? Like, I like, there’s always more to learn, but why do some people get histamine issues in the skin? Some get them in the brain. Some get them in the joints. Some get them in the gut. I believe it’s because there’s receptor mutations. If the histamine receptor that’s expressed in the brain is genetically hyperactive, your histamine issues will probably be felt there first.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:07:48]:
Right? So there’s so many cool rabbit holes to go down. My brother, he he’s a high histamine person. He gets more skin stuff. Mine is neurological brain fog, anxiety, headaches. So just fascinated how higher levels of this same one thing can present so differently in people.

Nick Urban [01:08:06]:
This transition is a bit of a stretch, but you mentioned having issues with sulfur and histamine. And there is a very popular supplement that is glycine with an acetylcysteine, glynaq, and especially in longevity circles these days. Are there any reasons aside from sulfur intolerance, perhaps in your genetics, that would make it something that wouldn’t work well for you?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:08:32]:
Yeah. I wouldn’t think so much things aside from the sulf that wouldn’t make it work well. You also got to think about where do we get these nutrients from? NAC is in a lot of cruciferous vegetables, and that’s why people say to eat them. Now glycine is found from animal connective tissue. Our ancestors would kill an animal. They would eat all the bones and tendons and sinews. All the gross stuff we don’t eat anymore. So I think a lot of people get enough sulfur.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:09:02]:
So let me put it this way. This is my belief. I’m a big fan of glycine. I rarely use NAC. That being said, making sure you have both bases covered, it makes sense. Right? But from what I’ve seen, a lot of people actually, people put on NAC and glutathione together. Why would you ever do that? Right? Why why have the building block and the and just more sulfur in the body? So I’ve seen the studies about glynac with the with the it’s probably, like, the blood aging, like, the biological aging of the blood. Yeah.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:09:29]:
That study is great. Right? I would love to see did they do NAC or glycine alone, or they just did both? I’m trying to remember.

Nick Urban [01:09:36]:
I think they just did both.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:09:37]:
Okay. Yeah. I’d be curious to see. I’m sure there is a synergistic effect. Right? But could some of those people have this subclinical brain fog or maybe the little bit of headaches that maybe from too much salt from the NAC? You know, maybe instead of 1 to 1, maybe you need 2 to 1 glycine to NAC. Right? But I’m not aware of any major risks per se with that. I just like to look at the gene that makes NAC if you have an issue making that. I think a lot of people get enough sulfur or a lot of people have a systemine sensitivity.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:10:09]:
So if your histamine bucket’s high, you’re gonna be less tolerable sulfur groups, right, since they also dump histamine. So with how much histamine issues there are in the world, it’s extremely common. I’m not a big fan of the NAC. But that being said, if you’re gonna take NAC, I think you should definitely heavily consider taking it with glycine bare minimum at a one to one ratio. Right? A lot of people the vast majority of people take NAC with no glycine. And I’m like, why are you taking one building block with all that sulfur without the other one, especially since our diets don’t consume as much glycine as we used to.

Nick Urban [01:10:42]:
And is cysteine the rate limiting enzyme in amino acid and, for creation?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:10:48]:
Yeah. Well, it’s it’s one of yeah. It’s one of the main ones for the NAC synthesis. Yep.

Nick Urban [01:10:52]:
Okay. Well, I have a couple more questions for you. We’ve been going for a while already. We’ll start to wind this one down. But first, if people want to work with you to check out your website or connect with you, what’s the best way?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:11:05]:
So I’m on Instagram at doctor Tyler Panzner, p a n z n e r. So there’s it’s a n sandwich in between the z there. Okay. Www.doctortylerpansner.com. I do mainly 1 on work 1 on 1 work with people now, really eliminating the guesswork for people. One thing I wanted to do too was, I wanted to offer your listeners a discount code to work with me to cover their DNA kit. What would you want that code to be?

Nick Urban [01:11:30]:
Urban would be great, u r b a n.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:11:32]:
Alright. So you guys listening. U r b a n, that’ll save you a $150, which covers your DNA kit to work with me?

Nick Urban [01:11:39]:
Perfect. Well, if there was a worldwide burning of the books and all knowledge on Earth is lost, but you get to save the works of 3 teachers, Who would you choose and why?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:11:49]:
Alright. No. I would probably say Gregor Mendel. Well, I think that’s a good one to start with. Right? I think that

Nick Urban [01:11:53]:
Sure.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:11:54]:
I think Gregor Mendel will be a great one there.

Nick Urban [01:11:56]:
Did anyone else influence your decision to specialize in

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:12:00]:
Honestly, no. You know, I just found out are you familiar with Ben Lynch?

Nick Urban [01:12:04]:
Yeah.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:12:05]:
Yeah. I found out about his work maybe a year or so ago. People told me, wow. You think very similarly to him. And it was it was it was like, I’ve never heard of him before. I already had all my own hypotheses, and it’s really cool, you know, it’s really cool when I’ve walked along my own path of knowledge, and then I compare to someone else, a separate brain.

Nick Urban [01:12:27]:
Mhmm. Beautiful. Let’s do a quick rapid fire round before we call it a day.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:12:34]:
Alrighty.

Nick Urban [01:12:35]:
What are your favorite supplements and why?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:12:38]:
Lithium aortate, without a doubt. We mentioned that ad nauseam here. Glycine is another favorite of mine, not only for glutathione production. It also stimulates the GABA system, very good for collagen synthesis. We ingest it from animal connective tissue to then break it down and use for our own connective tissue for joint health, skin health, hair health. And another one for me would probably be, calcediol. So calcediol is that’s the form of vitamin d that shows up on blood work. We talked about that sip to our one gene.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:13:16]:
That means you can’t make it as well. Right? So regular vitamin d supplementation doesn’t work as well for you. If I don’t take that, I will be deficient even in the summer in the sun for an hour each day. So those 3 are 3 that helped me immensely, that really have changed my life a lot.

Nick Urban [01:13:34]:
What’s your thought on gene editing technologies such as Casper or Casper what is it? CRISPR Cas 9 and, specifically, the very hot follistatin gene therapy now.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:13:46]:
Super scary yet, super exciting. You know, it it where are you gonna draw the line? Right? I think we can all agree if you have an unborn child that it that is gonna have a severe genetic disorder. If you could edit the gene, edit the embryo to get rid of it, I think we all agree that’s a good thing for humanity. But where do you draw the line from rich people using that to edit the genes to make their kids smarter or faster or stronger or better? I did CRISPR Cas9 work in my PhD. I edited the genes of breast cancer cells, and there were some off target effects as well. I do think people think it’s a perfect science. I would not get gene editing done for myself personally. Definitely not right now because we don’t properly check that none of the other genes were disturbed in the process.

Nick Urban [01:14:36]:
That is my big concern with it. And it’s becoming becoming popular in biohacking circles. I mean, it’s really expensive, but among those that can afford it. But I was gonna ask you about the off target effects. I didn’t realize you actually have studied and implemented it. Yep. Well, we’ve covered the gamut of topics today. If people have made it this far, any parting words of wisdom you’d like to leave them with?

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:14:58]:
I really hope any of you guys that stuck through this whole thing, I know had some dense stuff in there. I hope you guys, learn some easily easily usable, actionable tools. I think 95% of health is pattern recognition, and I hope I shared with you guys some patterns you can start looking out for. Listen to your body when you have a certain food. If you don’t if you don’t feel as energized after, maybe look. Is it high sulfur? Is it high histamine? And one last thing too is I don’t just work with people that are very, very sick. I work with a lot of high level athletes, entrepreneurs, business owners. They already feel great each day.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:15:35]:
They’re already on a lot of supplements. They work with other people. They just really wanna fine tune things. And let’s just say that 10 out of 10 day, you’re fired on all cylinders. You slept great. What if that was really an 8.5 out of 10? Right? And what if there’s still more to be desired? So the fact is everyone here listening has millions of mutations, including many thousands, thousands, if not millions, that can be supported naturally, including many I address. I personally believe I can help any any human being feel noticeably better day in and day out. Now am I gonna claim I cure everything always for everyone? Of course not.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:16:13]:
Any scientist or doctor that does that, that’s a big red flag. But can I get you to feel better by giving you more of what you need, less of what you don’t need? Yes. So if you’re on the fence about this stuff, you could book a discovery call. Be happy to chat more about it. And remember that code urban will save a $150 on that deep dive. I’m happy to give that to you guys there. And, yeah. Hope you guys stay in touch, stay in my orbit, a lot of exciting stuff coming, and really appreciate you having me on.

Nick Urban [01:16:40]:
Amazing. This has been a blast, and I love to see the way your mind thinks and approaches all the different topics we’ve covered today.

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:16:49]:
Thank you, my man. Appreciate it.

Nick Urban [01:16:50]:
Thank you. And until next time, I’m Nick Urban here with doctor Tyler Panziner, signing out from mindbodypeak.com. Have a great week, and be an outlier. I hope that this has been helpful for you. If you enjoyed it, meet me on my website

Dr. Tyler Panzner [01:17:09]:
at mindbodypeak

Nick Urban [01:17:15]:
meet me on my website at mindbodypeak.com. I appreciate you and look forward to connecting with you. As a reminder, information obtained in this video, please contact information personally. Please talk to your primary health care professional before making any assumptions.