Defeat Chronic Stress, Reduce Anxiety & Eliminate Brain Fog Naturally with Vagus Nerve Stimulation

Nick Urban [00:00:07]:
Are you a high performer secrets to unlocking the full potential of your mind, body, and spirit. We’ll learn from some of the world’s leading minds, from ancient wisdom to cutting edge tools and everything in between. This is your host, Nick Urban. Enjoy the episode. Alright. We’ve talked about HRV a number of times in the show and just how important that biomarker is for not just your stress, but your overall health. And today, we’re gonna be discussing one of the most potent ways of moving that value to increase your HRV and put yourself into a more relaxed and calm or chill state. Outside of breathing, this is one of the fastest ways, and unlike breathing, it is extremely easy.

Nick Urban [00:01:11]:
It’s simple. In fact, I have it around my neck right now for those of you watching the video version of this episode, and all you do is open up an app, click the mode you want, click start, and then sit back and relax. In this episode, we’re discussing all things related to the vagus nerve, a little bit about heart rate variability, the biggest mistakes people make when they look into stimulating the vagus nerve, different ways you can activate it from modern technology to the natural techniques and ways. We explore the safety and the long term potential drawbacks of overstimulating the vagus nerve and how you can know just how much to actually do it. How this compares to having a vagus nerve stimulator implanted. Yes. That’s right. Over 300,000 people around the world have this technology, albeit in a different form, actually implanted into their body and what exactly that does for you.

Nick Urban [00:02:16]:
This vagus nerve technology is not just for helping chronic conditions. We also explore an entirely different side of it, how it can keep you calm and in the flow state even when under tremendous pressure. We discuss why lifestyle habits are more universally beneficial than biohacks and supplements and ingredients. If you’re like me and you have no idea how this technology could benefit you, we get into that and a whole lot more, such as how different military units use vagus nerve stimulation, VNS technologies, stacks to get greater effects from your events and goals, whether that’s meditation, brain training, sports, high stakes meetings, or others. Our guest this week shares what it feels like, and that’s because that was before I had tried a VNS device. I now have one right here, and I’ve gone through about 10 sessions of it. With their device specifically, you can control the intensity, but, basically, it feels like a minor tens unit, if you know what that is. You apply some electrogel to the front part of your neck, put this device you wrap it around your neck, and you choose the intensity.

Nick Urban [00:03:41]:
And if you crank up the intensity very high, it can cause some, like, slight muscle contractions, but that’s not necessary to get the benefits. In doing my research for the episode, I also noticed that the famous longevity biohacker, Brian Johnson, has popularized the technology yet again among biohackers, and there is a lot of talk in the forums about the different things that it’s good for. Personally, I tried 2 modes, and I’ve done about 10 sessions over the last 10 days, stress mode and anxiety mode, just to see what they’re like. Now I don’t consider myself a very anxious person, but it certainly chilled me out. I didn’t notice as much from the stress mode, but the anxiety mode, I’ve found relaxing. Almost like having an alcoholic drink sans the sloppiness and the lack of coordination and other issues that can come from higher dose alcohol consumption and without the same performance degradation that you would otherwise get when doing some kind of functional assessment. I was skeptical about the claims that one session could really move heart rate variability all that much. So I’m currently wearing a chest strap, and I used Elite HR V to do some open readings of my HR V before, during, and after a session.

Nick Urban [00:05:03]:
Not only did I see my raw HRV increase after the session, but I also saw a metric called LF to HF ratio decrease, which means that I was less sympathetically active or, aka, I was more relaxed. And in the parasympathetic mode, my score went from 11 down to 7a half, so it clearly had some effect. And I’ve repeated that several days in a row, noticing similar things. And, again, I have the best effects from the anxiety mode. Stress mode doesn’t do quite as much to my HRV. Our guest this week is Vatalius Majirovas. He is a sleep biohacker, geek, and certified Buteyko Clinic breathing instructor who has spent more than 10 years in the sleep products industry. As he mentions episode, Vatalius did a 200 night experiment where he tested more than 70 sleep hacks and invented a neuromodulation device.

Nick Urban [00:06:07]:
His journey from corporate burnout led him to create the pulsedo vagus nerve stimulator, which I’m currently wearing. If you wanna check out the things that we discuss in this episode, you can find everything in the show notes, which will be at mindbodypeak.com/thenumber166. And if you want to try PULSETO for yourself, you can use the code urban to save 10% on your order. Having some fundamental knowledge about how the vagus nerve works and what you can do to modulate it can be an absolute game changer for your overall health as well as, of course, stress and recovery. So if you take nothing else from this episode, I hope you realize how many different ways you have of taking control of your state for better health. Alright. Sit back, relax, and enjoy this podcast episode with Vatalius. Vatalius, welcome to the podcast.

Nick Urban [00:07:09]:
Hi. Today, we’re gonna be diving into your specialty, and that is the all things the vagus nerve. So to start off, will you warm up with me and tell me some of the unusual nonnegotiables you’ve done so far today for your health, your performance, and your bioharmony?

Vitalijus [00:07:30]:
Good question for the start. To be honest, you know, I I spent a lot of year years in corporate default. I was, working in the sleep product industry in different countries in Europe, different countries, different companies. But at the same time, I had some issues with sleep. I was working like a crazy, like a 14, 15 hours per day, something like that. And then when I was 29 year old, it was sort of problems, especially from the sleep side because I was sleeping, like, 4 hours. At this moment, I work in Turkey in the turnaround management, so it was out of emotional stuff in the work, and and etcetera. And I remember that one day, panic attacks that’s, and I got a lot of blood samples, and those doctors tried to understand why it’s happening.

Vitalijus [00:08:25]:
And, you know, in the end of the story, they they wrote me Xanax, when I was 29. When I said to mother, mother said, look, it’s a it’s a bad way, you know, that the way is going to the disaster because it’s creating addiction and etcetera. So I realized that I need to do something and I started to change. And of course, I started from sleep. And at that moment, because I was working in the sleep industry, I just wanted to see what other things beside mattresses, pillows, you know, and etcetera that can influence sleep. So I started this kind of, few hundred night experiments. I took a list of things, which has some kind of scientific, let’s say, findings, and I tested one of those things 3 nights in a row. At that moment, I I I I had a few trackers to measure the sleep deterioration, some sleep quality, things like deep sleep and etcetera.

Vitalijus [00:09:19]:
Of course, it was not a scientific study, but still I saw some kind of trends, you know, and etcetera. And and and and and I tested those seventy things. Some of them was really crazy. I remember the first thing was kiwi kiwi as a fruit because you can find, several scientific studies. If you’re eating kiwi, you can, like, you know, change your sleep and etcetera. So I ate kiwi 3 nights in in in in in a row and just saw is it really changing my sleep behaviors and etcetera? So, but the the the main point after those, let’s say, 200 nights, I really realized that, how much because I thought that I’m sleeping normal, normal, like, you know, nothing super fancy, you know, and etcetera. But then I realized that how what is the big, gap between the normal perfect sleep, you know, and, when you’re fulfilling this gap, you know, then, you know, you are getting much bigger productivity, energy, sharper mind, and etcetera. So this is how I came to the bill hacking bill hacking concept.

Vitalijus [00:10:21]:
You know, this is how I’ll get to the longevity concept, you know, and and and, that’s why I’m, you know, so, curious about this topic. And, one day, you know, I I I met the Vegas Nerf, in in my, let’s say, finding finding and research time, you know, I met Vegas Nerf, and then, you know, I realized that it’s really interesting, topic, you know, to to to dig deeper.

Nick Urban [00:10:44]:
We will get to that in a minute. But out of those 200 nights, did you find anything that worked really well? And, of course, sleep is pretty individual. Like, what works great for me might not work at all for you. But were there, like, 3 or 4 or 5 things that you found that were most consistent or effective for you?

Vitalijus [00:11:02]:
Yeah, for sure. And I mean, for example, those things I believe that go to Universal because they have a lot of studies and they say not 1 or 2 researchers, but meta analysis of of things. And, and, yeah. I mean, first of all, it’s a it’s a bedroom, very important, you know, darkness and and and cooling effect. So the temperature and the complete darkness is super important. I mean, we can always say that mattress or pillow or bedding sets very important. But, you know, in reality, even if the room is plus 30, yeah, even if you will sleep on €10,000 or dollars mattress, it cannot, you know, be the the main stuff. So the the bedroom and and and the darkness and cooling effect is very important, of course.

Vitalijus [00:11:43]:
Then to deal with triggers is very important because it’s like with weight control. Maybe you don’t need to go to the gym like a crazy. Maybe you just need to deal with triggers and those stop eating, I don’t know, junk food and stop drink calories and and that’s it. So the same with with sleep, there are very bad things, like, caffeine, alcohol, and and then the blue light. And then if you can control those things, I mean, you maybe don’t need even to create additional new, let’s say, tricks and hacks and etcetera, then stress for sure. It’s a big, big, enemy of the Melatonin. And I mean, the cortisol in general is like a hormone of Antigone. So it means that if you have in the evening, more, cortisol, you have, let’s say, producing less amount of melatonin.

Vitalijus [00:12:27]:
So you need to do something with stress. There are man many, many things to know what you can do. You can make meditation. You can make breathing exercises. You can wear a pull set or you can, I don’t know, do other bunch of things? Then I think very important is to have the routine, your own routine. So for example, I have my own routine. It’s like a 10, 3 to 1, like, what I’m doing 10 hour before sleep, 3 to 1. I am not everyday using this routine, but, for example, when I have bad sleep, because it’s normal to have, like, a 1 or 2 bad night per per month, but, I really don’t want to avoid those situations when I’m doing it in a row, you know, when I have, like, a bad 3 bad nights in a row.

Vitalijus [00:13:09]:
So whenever I have bad night sleep, let’s say I’m switching on to this routine. And and basically, it’s like a 10 hours before sleep. I’m just trying to consume the last coffee. It means the last coffee thing is before, let’s say, after lunch, later, something like that. Then 3 hours before sleep, some kind of physical activity. It’s like it can be even walking or or some. Then 2 hours before sleep, blue light things. So it means, cut as as as as much as possible the the the the the light sources, and then 1 hour before sleep, some kind of stress reduction exercise.

Vitalijus [00:13:44]:
Doesn’t matter. It’s it’s a breathing yoga, meditation doesn’t matter. So this is how I’m doing not not every day, but let’s say 3, 4 days per per week. And then I think the morning is very important because, everything starts from the morning. So, light and to get as much possible light in in in in the first part of the day, especially, let’s say, in in the in the morning is very crucial. So so those those things, it it can be even more things, but I think those things are quite universal. They have quite a lot of studies in common. It’s not only works for me, but I think for for the other people also.

Nick Urban [00:14:20]:
I love the idea of never having 2 bad nights of sleep in a row because if you’re doing that, then you’ll make sure that your body is getting the adequate rest. And, also, the fact that a lot of your protocols and strategies are lifestyle based because even some of the most proven sleep supplements, like, say, magnesium or melatonin, it works. They both work great for a lot of people, but then certain people are paradoxical responders where they get energy and they wake up, like, clockwork at 2, 3 AM if they use magnesium or melatonin.

Vitalijus [00:14:55]:
Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I agree. I agree. It’s it’s also, supplements is it’s it’s it’s good at some point, but it’s not like a super universal stuff. I mean, at this moment, for example, I’m really, in love with mouth taping. Not I mean, I am not snoring in general, but but, I mean, I just realized because I’m measuring sp02, the oxygen, let’s say, saturation level that when I whenever I’m doing, when I’m sleeping with mouth tape and I’m using those those kind of stickers, you know, on my on my mouth, my SPO 2 level is much higher comparing with, that I’m not wearing this. And I I big believe that I didn’t found any evidence, but I big believe that if you have big oxygen levels, let’s say like a 99 or even 100, it can increase the deep sleep.

Vitalijus [00:15:45]:
I I found some some some mini studies, but it’s not a meta analysis and etcetera. Because more oxygen, better you have the vessel. I I mean, I feel better. I I cannot prove it’s, I don’t know, some scientific studies or something like that. But I’m just really big fan of of mountain peak. And if if somebody is snoring, I believe this is the must what you need to do because majority of people are snoring because they cannot switch to, nose breathing, during the night.

Nick Urban [00:16:12]:
Yeah. Pre COVID, I’d used mouth taping every single night for about 2 years. And, eventually, I realized that I didn’t even have to cover up my entire mouth a strip vertically and left a little bit of gap on either side. I could still breathe in an emergency if I had to. I woke up, and I was gasping for air. And I would still anatomically shift my jaw and tongue and put it into a place where my blood oxygenation, my sp02, was higher. And as a result of it being higher, I would wake up fewer times throughout the night. I could see that reliably on my Oura ring data in other wearables where all of a sudden I wake up went from waking up 10 times per night to 2, 3, and it made a big difference.

Nick Urban [00:16:59]:
It also forces you to nose breathe, and the nose breathing nose has about somewhere in the thirties, functions and benefits that you don’t get when you mouth breathe. And the caveat is if you have a sinus infection or clogged sinuses for any reason, obviously, taping over your entire mouth is not gonna be a good idea. But for someone who’s healthy and is able to breathe freely through the nose, has a lot of a lot of benefits.

Vitalijus [00:17:26]:
Yeah. I mean, at at the same time, I’m also one of the in instructors of Buteyko Breathing Method. Once, I mean, I and and Buteyko is very big promoters of the nose breathing and, I mean, oxygen advantage and Patrick McHugh.

Nick Urban [00:17:39]:
One way to increase the vagal nerve tone is to control our breathing. But before we start talking about ways of increasing the and toning the vagus nerve, let’s talk about what it is and why you’ve decided to pursue it and focus so heavily on it.

Vitalijus [00:17:56]:
Basically, it’s one of the one of the one of the nerves. The uniqueness of this nerve that it has branches in every organ, and connects basically the brain with, let’s say, internal organs, the brain with the gut. You can say that’s like a highway between the brain and and and the gut. But you you can you you need to imagine that it’s not like a nerve. It’s not also like a wire. Yeah. It’s it’s more than it’s it’s more about Internet connections. A lot of, let’s say, fibers, a lot of branches.

Vitalijus [00:18:24]:
Basically, it’s not not the one nerve. It’s 160,000 branches. And when you are electrically stimulate specific branches, you can tackle specific things. This is the most fascinating fact, and this is where still the science didn’t found all the answers. You know? Because specific fibers of the vagus nerves are responsible for specific for specific things. In majority of of of cases, vagus nerve is like, responsible for switching to the parasympathetic nervous system, which basically is rest and digest. So it’s all about, you know, cooling down yourself and decreasing the heart rate, decreasing the breath rate, relaxing the muscles, you know, and etcetera. But at the same time, vagus nerve, can be a quite important, it’s a control center of inflammation.

Vitalijus [00:19:14]:
Some of the, vagus nerve fibers can can can really work well with migraina, and there are a lot of studies about it. So, I mean, it’s quite quite interesting because, like I said, different fibers can can tackle different things. And my story is very simple. You know, my wife, she has cluster head pain. It’s 10 times stronger than migraines or something like that. It it it appears very rare. Like, a 1% of population has this this this stuff, and it can be, like, 2 years without this pain. And then, you know, once let’s say for 1 week during the night, you have this pain.

Vitalijus [00:19:52]:
And and the other name of this pain is suicidal pain because it’s like somebody’s cutting your head, and part of the head usually. And we try a lot of things because there is no basically treatment. You know? We try drugs. We try oxygen therapy. I even bought these big oxygen balloons, you know, and and etcetera. There is some studies about LSD microdosing and possible treatment of of of of this. And then 5 years ago, I read article about vagus nerve stimulation and possible treatment of cluster head pains. So this is how I dig dig deeper in this topic.

Vitalijus [00:20:29]:
At the same time, I tested a lot of those biohacker night, you know, stuff, you know, and etcetera. And I realized that I need to test. I found Lithuania one device, you know, who was like, a Viggo Neste. I found a guy, who’s, like, the best person in Baltic states in about the Vagueness. This is my partner, by the way. So this is how we met with my partner. That moment he worked with the invasive vagus nerve stabilators because invasive nerve stabilators, they’re treating epilepsy. There are a lot of people in the world, around 300,000 people who have implantable vagus nerve stimulator.

Vitalijus [00:21:04]:
And this is one of the best treatments for epilepsy. Originally, this was the main thing of the vagus nerve, and the first treatment first, let’s say, implant was 20 years ago. So and and then only then they realized when they started to study those those patients with the implants that they realized that this is also good for the other things like depression, like like relaxation, like, inflammation management. And then they realize that it’s also very good for the migraine and cluster head pains. Now there is even one device in the market who can treat cluster head pains and it’s a vagus nerve stimulator medical device. And and and you can, for example, even Lithuania, you can prescribe this device and have, have a treatment. So this was my my motivation, and this is how, you know, we created we saw that it’s a gap. There is no, let’s say, devices in the for the users, for the, like, commercial usage, And there is no user friendly devices.

Vitalijus [00:22:02]:
You know? And this is how we we we we start building the pool setup.

Nick Urban [00:22:07]:
I wanna explore a little more about the biology, how this all works. Because as you mentioned earlier, if it is it can be viewed as the Internet for the body connecting the brain to all the organs and organ systems, obviously, that’s gonna be very important. You also mentioned how it’s involved in the stress response or the stress switch. And as I understand it, there’s the autonomic nervous system, which is comprised of the parasympathetic and sympathetic branches. The sympathetic is often called the fight, flight, or freeze branch. In the sympathetic or parasympathetic is called the rest and digest. And by stimulating the nerve, you’re able to help the body shift from the stimulated state, the fight, flight, or freeze state, into a relaxation state. And when you’re in that relaxation state, then a lot of the systems in the body calm down, the neuronal firing quiets, everything starts going back to baseline.

Nick Urban [00:23:05]:
And a lot of these conditions that you’re mentioning, such as the extreme migraines, are actually caused by over activation of the one branch and under activation of the other.

Vitalijus [00:23:17]:
I mean, you’re very correct in in in in this description. I mean, basically, what I need to add that, basically, the let’s say, from those 160,000 fibers, around 70% are here. The nerve is very strong in the tragus area in the ear region, Then it goes down, and it’s it has super big branch on the neck, in both sides of the neck near the sleep apnea. And then around 20% of fibers are are going to the to the, to the organs, let’s say, to to now a little bit on the chest and and and etcetera. So, when, you are tackling electric signal and and electric signal, by the way, consists of different parameters, for example, voltage, amplitude, pulse width, pulse width. You can you can switch on specific, vagus nerve fibers, and majority of them are responsible to switch the the parasympathetic nervous system, rest and digest. So it means that we can see, when we are activating the nerve, we can see, for example, that heart rate is is is changing. The heart rate is decreasing.

Vitalijus [00:24:23]:
In some cases, we see quite fast response in heart rate variability. The other metric, you know, what we can see if we are using some kind of third party wearable devices and etcetera. At the same time, if you are taking the blood samples, for example, what we can see that if you are tackling specific vagus nerve fibers in the spleen, you are releasing Acetylcholine. This is the one of the neurotransmitters, which is very responsible for the heart rate decreasement, but also it’s responsible for the inflammation management. And it’s very fascinating because it means that electric signal inside of the body turns to the chemical signal and neurotransmitter. So this is how basically it works. And basically we see from one side measurable things like heart rate, heart rate probability, in some cases, even the blood pressure decreasement, breathing rate decreasement. So basically this represents, let’s say the parasympathetic nervous system prove that it’s it’s it’s switched on.

Vitalijus [00:25:20]:
And then from, at the site, we have some some neurotransmitters were released, during the stimulation. And then this is how they’re they’re good in in in case of the, let’s say, a migraine or in case of inflammation management and and etcetera. So basically, this this is the basics. And I also need to add that it’s very normal that during the day we are switching on between the fight and flight. Yeah. And rest and digest. It’s it’s normal. It’s impossible that we will be always in the parasympathetic nervous system.

Vitalijus [00:25:49]:
I mean, you from the stress point, you need to find the sweet spot. Yeah. To to to relax is not good. Too stressed is also not good because you’re very narrow in your thinking and etcetera. So you need to find the sweet spot. The biggest problem of existing, let’s say, environment and world that we are too constantly switching to the fight and flight. Every Slack message, every, I don’t know, inter I mean, you are driving on the car and then somebody is, like, you know, trying to to to to to move you to the fight and flight. You know? And you’re seeing Instagram reels and then suddenly you’re become.

Vitalijus [00:26:24]:
It’s and then what what’s happening that you’re becoming chronic stress because you cannot easily switch back to the to the to the parasympathetic nervous system if you’re constantly every 5 minutes in the fight and flight. So, by activating the vagus nerve, you are helping to return back to the to the to this relaxed state, but it’s impossible to be in this relaxed state for all day.

Nick Urban [00:26:46]:
So looking at this through the ancestral lens, humans didn’t used to have so many stressors, so many triggers in their environment. They would flip them into the sympathetic stressed out state. They used to have to, say, avoid a tiger or something, one of those cliches, and they’d run away, then they’d be parasympathetic a lot of the rest of the day. But now because of technology, because of modernity and having cars and all these different things, many of us are spending a big portion of our day in the stressed out state, and it’s well established at this point that stress is a root of all disease, and it can interfere with healthy inflammation levels and all that. But then from a the same evolutionary basis, how would humans regulate the vagus nerve before technology? Because as I understand, there’s a number of different things we can do that already influence vagus nerve activity.

Vitalijus [00:27:45]:
Exactly. I mean, back to the basics. And and basically, biohacking is about back to the basics, you know, and and sometimes we are just losing the basics. And the same is with sleep. You know? The same is with breathing. It’s a free stuff. You know? But then we are spending 100 or 1,000, you know, for the for the tools. You know? Because we cannot use anymore normal the free stuff.

Vitalijus [00:28:05]:
You know? So the same with vagus nerve, the the the you can activate vagus nerve at home, without any, let’s say, technology things and etcetera. For example, breathing, it’s it’s, one of the parts of of this. Breathing is reactivate the vagus nerve. Just maybe the problem that it takes a little bit more time. It’s like, like, a 20 minutes to to to make some vagus nerve activation. But for example, this is really good. Humming, it’s quite becoming quite popular, trendy, stuff, but it’s really because it’s also related to neck region and etcetera. This this sound of it’s a cold shower on on the face region.

Vitalijus [00:28:46]:
It’s also quite quite nice. Jaw massage, there is some specific Stanley Rosenman techniques and etcetera. But, I mean, basically, the breathing, the the the humming, the the singing even. I mean, those those kind of activities which because they’re quite actively, involving their movements and and and of of of of those, let’s say, areas of the of the body and and nerves. It’s it it was like, you know, free stuff. But, nowadays, those device because people are lazy, those devices allow us to do it much faster. You know? And you don’t need to spend, I don’t know, 20 minutes in some kind of specific environment, to to make a breathing exercises. You can just wear the device, you know, and, speak it’s you and, you know, to do this activation of the nerve.

Nick Urban [00:29:34]:
When you’re breathing, is there a certain cadence or protocol that has the best effects? Like, for example, if you did, shallower breaths, like, say, the Wim Hof or the Tummo or the fire breathing as some as it’s sometimes called, that’s gonna be more stimulating, and I have a feeling that’s gonna take you into deeper into the sympathetic state, less of the parasympathetic, less relaxation. I’m guessing you wouldn’t wanna do that.

Vitalijus [00:29:56]:
I mean, tempo of of the breed is the one one of the big criteria, because, like, average, temp was, like, about 20 12, 16 times per minute, something like that. I mean, breathe in, breathe out. If you are decreasing this tempo to to 68, it means by half, you’re you’re quite quite, quite, strongly decreasing the heart rate. You’re quite I mean, you’re you’re quite fast also influencing the vagus nerve, and and switching on the parasympathetic nervous system. So lowering the tempo and and and and other very big part of of this small thing, but very important thing. Because when you’re breathing in, you’re increasing the heart rate. And when you’re breathing out, you’re decreasing the heart rate. This is how our body works.

Vitalijus [00:30:40]:
So if your breathe outs will be longer compared to the breathe ins, So the same item, you will decrease the the the heart rate faster. And one more time, you will activate the the the the vagal tone and and the person body’s nervous system. So so those things probably are our most important, and there are a bunch of exercises like, I have a box breathing, the the fragment breathing, and etcetera. So it doesn’t matter so much, the the the technique, let’s say, but those two components of of of tempo and and, longer breathe outs is is is the 2 two most important things.

Nick Urban [00:31:16]:
Yeah. So to use this for vagus nerve improvement, then you just wanna focus on slowing down the breath rate overall and making your exhalation longer than your inhalation to keep your heart rate lower, which then translates to better vagus nerve.

Vitalijus [00:31:32]:
You with yourself. I mean, yeah, I mean, for example, you just you you made some kind of high intensity interval, you know, interval. You you saw your your heart rate is is is increased, and then just try to play with the tempo and and and longer breath outs. You will see immediately how fast your heart rate is dropping. You know?

Nick Urban [00:31:52]:
Is there a mechanical component here? Because when you’re humming, chanting, singing, doing these things, you’re gonna be, like, vibrating your voice box and, like, that neck area, maybe less so when you’re doing breath work. But it seems like even the massage, those all have, like, some kind of pressure component.

Vitalijus [00:32:09]:
Yeah. It has some pressure component because the nerve is under the muscle, under the fat, so we need to so that’s why you need, like, like, not not so easy to to to to reach it. Or in in case of bleeding, that’s why you need, let’s say, more time. It means not to spend, let’s say, at least 20 minutes of breathing in case of humming very similar. I mean, the sound is not so strong. And in order to reach the nerve level, you need to do it for the longer period of time or very loudly in other words. And, the massage is also you don’t need to expect that if you go massage on hold 1 minute, it will be automatically, activated. So, theoretically, it sounds very easy that let’s do some massage.

Vitalijus [00:32:53]:
Let’s do some humming. But in reality, I mean, it takes time because, to activate, to switch on the nerve, go under the muscle. It’s it’s it’s quite quite hard. That’s why, for example, when we created this this device, the signal itself is quite quite, quite strong, quite deep. I mean, the sensation of of the vagus electrical vagus nerve stimulation is very similar to the TENS, to the muscle stimulation. Those devices, just muscle stimulators, they’re going to the muscle level. We need to go deeper to the nerve levels. So that’s why the signal itself, I mean, the voltage amplitude, the waves, are are a little bit different, animals, let’s say, in in in this case.

Vitalijus [00:33:35]:
Yeah.

Nick Urban [00:33:35]:
Are there any at home tests I could do, for example, or listeners could do to determine if this would really make a difference for them? Like, for example, if I have a really low HRV, I could tell that from my wearable data and say, okay. This might be something worth considering. Or if my resting heart rate is higher than I think it should be or I see a trend upward in the last period of time. And, of course, figuring out the underlying cause of that and addressing that is gonna be the most important. And then as an add on, perhaps also working on the vagus nerve at the same time.

Vitalijus [00:34:05]:
One of the parameters is HRV for sure. Just if you will speak more about HRV, it’s quite complex metric. It’s not only dependable on some electrostimulation, but it’s also dependent on a lot of things. For example, if you will at one point, you will be able to set another on the other point, you will drink wine, you know, you know, you cannot expect a miracle, you know, because alcohol is very drastically decreasing their HRV, you know, and and and etcetera. But, HRV is one of the metrics, and I can even say that HRV is, the represent basically the vagus nerve strength or or the tone of the vagus nerve. Because the stronger the tone, then it means that, let’s say, less, problems you have in in connection of of of gut and and and and brain. Because if you have low tone, it means that then you have those kind of situations of leaky gut, brain fog, you know, and etcetera because neurons are traveling through the vagus nerve between the brain and and and and, and organs. And for example, just just simple example, liver, for example, it has around 500 functions.

Vitalijus [00:35:07]:
So brain somehow needs to get information. Are those functions are okay? Yeah. The the checkup stops. So this information goes through the vagus nerve. And then, if the signal is bad, not not enough information comes to the to the brain. And then brain little bit, you know, are, in shock, and then they can send the strong commands, let’s say. But if if the if the if the strength is good, the brand the brain then sends the normal commands. For example, please relax.

Vitalijus [00:35:35]:
Please reduce the heart rate. Please relax the bile. Please etcetera. So the strength of the nerve is very important. HRV basically represented, very roughly, we can say that if the HRV is, let’s say, about 50. So the bigger HRV, the better is. If if it’s around 50, let’s say you can improve. If it’s, let’s say, from 50 to 8, it’s quite okay, quite good.

Vitalijus [00:35:59]:
If it’s more than 8, I think it’s it’s it’s okay. So the stronger the HRV, the stronger than the nerve. So by doing, let’s say, vagus nerve stimulation for for some specific period of time, you will see the improvement of HRV. But if the behavior changes if if if you will not, you know, be in the bad things like alcohol consumption or if you will sleep normally and etcetera. So because this is the complex metric. So this is this is one side. You you you will see the changes of the heart rate and and and you will see the changes of the heart rate availability. But the other thing is more, let’s say, subjective things.

Vitalijus [00:36:36]:
But still we see in a lot of cases when vagus nerve is activated and when we are doing quite strong electrostimulation, the lib dip goes down. It’s a quite quite interesting experience, but it’s not only for us, but also for the other, let’s say, vagus nerve stimulators with some specific deep signal. We see the lip dip. And the second, subjective thing is saliva in the mouth. During the vagus nerve activation, you are increasing the saliva in the mouth. That’s why it’s rest and digest. Yes. So it’s it’s all about digestion, etcetera.

Vitalijus [00:37:11]:
You can see, by the way, with with breathing exercises the same. If you didn’t did like a protocol of some kind of, breathing exercise experience. You will see much bigger amount of saliva in your mind. So this is also the part of the of the of the but this is subjective feeling because different people have little bit different, let’s say, genetics or or or or or or whatever. But still

Nick Urban [00:37:34]:
Vitalias, what are some of the causes of, like, low vagal nerve tone? Like, for example, when you were sleeping 4 hours per night, I’m gonna assume that’s gonna keep your body in a more stressed out state, and you would be you’d stand to really gain from extra stimulation of the vagus nerve.

Vitalijus [00:37:52]:
Yeah. This this is the one. For example, what what what I see that a a lot of people who are not do doing physical activity I mean, obese people and etcetera, they have quite heart quite high heart rate resting heart rate, because, like, a normal resting heart rate could, you know, be between 5090. And and and and and the bigger the heart rate you have, usually, there’s the lower heart rate variability you have. It’s, like, very connected in in a lot of cases, you know, and, the bigger the heart rate variability usually lower the resting hand the heart rate you you have. For example, I know professional athletes, and and they have like 40, beats per minute, when they’re sleeping and and etcetera. So, usually, high heart rate represents, resting heart rate represents already quite, quite, let’s say, bad bad situation. So I don’t say that all of these people, they have this, but it’s a it’s a quite, let’s say, related to this.

Vitalijus [00:38:53]:
Then there are specific areas. For example, there are quite interesting studies that shown that COVID, made, and long COVID, especially, they made damage of the vagus nerve, and and and it’s quite quite, I mean, quite massive data already about it. So, it could be also this related with with with this. And, there are some genetic, things also which can influence the the the the nervous nerve strength. But, the probably the most positive thing that you can you can change. You can you can always trend the this this. I mean, I cannot say that it’s like a muscle, but it’s quite similar. I mean, you you you you can by doing, positive changes in your life, you can strengthen this nerve.

Vitalijus [00:39:43]:
It’s it’s practically impossible. There are, of course, cases that you are damaging the vagus nerve and you’re basically, it’s impossible to return back. But those cases are very, very rare and very, very

Nick Urban [00:39:54]:
small. That’s nice. It’s very modifiable. So if we have poor vagal nerve tone, we can increase it by using some lifestyle switches, some improvements, and should see a response from that alone. And then we can also look to other ways to further increase it.

Vitalijus [00:40:11]:
I mean, interesting data are from those people who have implantable vagus nerve stimulator. Like I said, there are 300,000 people, and some of them already wearing this implant for 10 years, something like that. So it’s a lot of data. And what they saw what they saw that because, for example, if you have epilepsy, you can have, like, a 10 seizures per hour, something like that. You know? And every seizure can be deadly, basically. So what those devices, implantable stimulators, they’re doing whenever they see the the seizures coming, they’re switching on and sending the blocking signal to the brain, basically. So, they they they can switch on every 5 minutes, theoretically. So what they saw, that one negative side effect, what could be, you know, with this constant switching on, that you can overstimulate the nerve.

Vitalijus [00:40:58]:
But in order to overstimulate the vagus nerve, and then overstimulation of the nerve can lead to the damaging of of the nerve. So by so in order to overstimulate the nerve, you need to stimulate the nerve more than 12 hours per day by electricity. But, I mean, still, it’s theoretically possible, but it’s quite there is a possibility that you can overstimulate.

Nick Urban [00:41:20]:
Aside from decreased seizures, which is obviously life saving for the people with implantable vagus nerve stimulators, What are some of the other side benefits that they experience, either that population specifically, because there’s a lot of data for their usage, or people who perhaps don’t have any conditions and they just want to improve their health and well-being and performance and everything. Aside from seeing some biomarker changes on paper, which is nice, what are the more real world outcomes you’ve seen?

Vitalijus [00:41:53]:
I mean, you know, there is even a term in sport. It name it it’s neurodoping. It’s not only about the weakness, but in general, when you’re doing neuromodulation techniques and neuromodulation, meaning electric stimulation techniques in order to gain some advantage. And there are professional athletes who are using it, for example, for better recovery, for stronger muscle enhancement, for better coordination, and etcetera. The they are using collective stimulation devices to get advantage. And this is this is, you know, why this neurodoping is called because antidoping association cannot do nothing at this moment, with this. I mean, because it’s not go beyond the traditional, let’s say, doping norms. No? But it’s just ethical point of view.

Vitalijus [00:42:42]:
So there is there are more and more sport people who are using it just because, you know, they are recovering better, they are less stressed because this is very important to know and etcetera. So even in our in our case, for example, we have one customer, very real example. He’s a professional poker player, and, he’s playing, in the poker tournaments with this device because he said, when I’m playing the poker on the table, my heart rate is 120. I’m just sitting, but my heart is like a very very very high. And when I have very high heart rate, I’m narrowing my vision. You know? And then when I’m narrowing my vision, you know, I I I’m losing the the the momentum and then the, let’s say, competitor eye movements, which is very important in the pocket. Yeah. It’s a sports psychology.

Vitalijus [00:43:30]:
So let’s say with with our device, he’s decreasing the the heart rate by 7 by 9 points, which is, I mean, not like super, but still is a is it big, you know, for the professional athletes, small changes can lead to the big, big, let’s say, results.

Nick Urban [00:43:45]:
That’s very significant too because anyone who’s competed high level in sports knows that as your heart rate goes up, your vision narrows, you get tunnel vision, and you can’t integrate ideas. You’re not quite as effective and sharp as usual, but then also you make worse decisions. And there’s lots of research on the effect of increasing heart rate on performance, detrimentally affecting performance. So if you’re able to keep heart rate down, especially as the pressure’s increasing, whether it’s on the field for sports or if it’s in the boardroom in on the job, you’re gonna do better overall at whatever task it is.

Vitalijus [00:44:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for example, one of the team I know the case from Tim O’Donnell, one of the top Ironman athletes. He was using Transcarium Current Stimulation. In other words, he was using the, let’s say, low signal brain stimulation, you know, to to make the better recovery muscle enhancement. And and it it was one of his tools for his success in in in in the last 10 years with Ironman. So, I mean, yeah, the the the sport people are using in in in in some cases, these these devices. And like I said, there are there are there are there are a lot of electrostimulation devices.

Vitalijus [00:45:05]:
But but at the same at the same time, we have bunch of sick people and, you know, majority of them, they’re addicted to, to drugs, medical drugs. I mean, because if you’re talking about, I don’t know, epilepsy, migraine, depression, it’s, quite a lot of people. It’s like a third, 30% of, of population, and majority of those people are addicted to the drugs. And, the the biggest problem of the the drugs is addiction. And there are big rates of of of of deaths of overdose, especially in US because it’s like a opioid epidemic. You know, everybody’s giving those strong, opioids, like, you know, for free, you know, and etcetera. So with, electric stimulation, there is no side effect. You cannot be addicted, you know.

Vitalijus [00:45:57]:
And, the market is quite quite big. You know, for example, there are deep brain stimulators. They are treating Parkinson’s. There are spinal cord stimulators. They are treating, very strong chronic pains when the painkillers cannot help anymore. So, for those, let’s say, sick people, it’s a it’s a it’s a it can be a very good alternative for the medical drugs. You know? So yeah.

Nick Urban [00:46:20]:
Yeah. I’ll go back to the performance side for a second because I was just thinking, I’ve used some of the technologies, the transcranial direct stimulation and alternating stimulation, all those where you’re applying electrodes to different parts of your head, running a small microcurrent of electricity with the goal of stimulating learning and memory via brain chemicals like acetylcholine. You referenced that one earlier. And I know that I’ve seen certain devices that can, based on the research, actually do that. But our vagus nerve stimulators, by their action on certain brain chemicals, able to stimulate learning in memory and to, say, accelerate it?

Vitalijus [00:46:58]:
There are. With Placinto, we did we are doing a lot of studies, but not in this field. But for example, I know I know one company. They are working very much with US Army. And from one side, you know, they are working with PTSD, ex veterans. But from other side, they are working with existing, army soldiers. And for example, one of the typical case that soldier, they I mean, they’re like, I have very low amount of sleep. Let’s say, because they’re in some kind of, let’s say, combat phase or whatever.

Vitalijus [00:47:32]:
And then, you know, and the next day, they need to just make a decision. And usually, when you lack of sleep, then you you have issues with the concentration with, you know, decision making, you know, etcetera. And they they see that the Wiggo Stimulation, one more time, specific electric signal, which cannot create specific fibers of the wisdom, can increase the alertness and and and mental clarity. So we we never did study like this. No. Despite the fact that we already now also working with Lithuanian, forces, but on the little bit different things. So so there is a possibility. But one more time, it it it must be covered different, let’s say, fibers of the vagus nerve.

Nick Urban [00:48:15]:
So technology has a potential. It hasn’t been studied, and it would probably have a bit different parameters in the current uses.

Vitalijus [00:48:21]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Nick Urban [00:48:23]:
One thing I think about in general with all this kind of stuff is what is the safety of it? Because in general, I know you mentioned there’s no side effects, but in general, when the body is protecting itself, it’ll down regulate hormones, neurotransmitters as, like, a safety mechanism to prevent some kinda potential drawbacks. Is there gonna be any potential longer term consequences of, in a way, overriding what the body is doing? Perhaps, usually, when vagus nerve issues arise, it’s because it gets stuck in a deactivated state. But what do you think about, like, long term on this?

Vitalijus [00:48:55]:
I believe no. But I I I your I mean, your question is very logical. For example, when you’re consuming hormones, let’s say, I don’t know, testosterone and so that there is a risk to have this negative loop. It means that you will not produce any more organically the the this this hormone. Yeah. Because it’s too much hormone coming from the outside and the way I said, the same with melatonin and and others. There there are no, let’s say, data or that something like negative loop exists with the electric stimulation. And let’s say the data is quite big, you know, because it’s already 10, you know, years, let’s say, science.

Vitalijus [00:49:32]:
It’s not like a fresh or something like that. So because, I mean, probably the biggest explanation that human is electric machine, so it’s just, you know, it’s quite natural for for for him to give some electricity, you know, and and and etcetera. Of course, you know, we will see more, but I I believe it will be no because it already, there are consequences probably, you know, we will we saw, you know, if it was something, you know, bad, you know, with this. I’m I’m big believer that it’s like with supplements, you know. I read just, that 5 years ago, it was like a statistic that every third person use supplements daily. I mean, like, minerals, vitamins, etcetera. Now the statistic is every 8. So I mean, sorry.

Vitalijus [00:50:19]:
8 from 10. So it’s like 80%. Before it was 30% people are using daily. Now it’s 80%. I mean, you can live without supplements. Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s you can live without supplements if you’re doing the good nutrition, etcetera. But if you want to optimize your health, probably you need at some point some kind of supplements.

Vitalijus [00:50:37]:
Yeah. And supplement business made huge education about it. It’s like a normal, you know, to take some kind of pill or or or whatever. I totally believe that after 5 years, it will be totally normal to hear something. Yeah. Like, I mean, a lot of people with Pulsettis, it will be a lot of people with Neuralink, you know, implants. It will be a lot of people who are wearing some headbands, you know, some wristbands, you know. And so it will be total norm.

Vitalijus [00:51:02]:
Like now, a total norm became to consume, I don’t know, omega 3 or or d vitamin or whatever, you know, just to, optimize the health and and and and I think more people are also taking care of prevention and and more people are taking care, you know, of their health optimization at the same time also.

Nick Urban [00:51:22]:
When I think about the body tampering down and reducing activity of certain things, There’s, like, generally two reasons. It’s, 1st, because it was a part of a negative feedback loop. You use exogenous hormones, and your body says, I don’t need anymore. I have it here circulating. No point of using energy for this. But then the other is a bit different. It’s as a protective mechanism. So if you fast all the time, you don’t get enough nutrients, your body’s gonna say, hey.

Nick Urban [00:51:50]:
We’re in a time of scarcity. I need to scale back, decrease the energy output so that I have more in case I can’t get food for another week. So then you see things like thyroid decreasing. And if you just mechanistically override the body’s natural process by introducing more thyroid in any form, you’re overriding its, like, its safety mechanism, as I call it, of, like, we’re in a time of scarcity, so we’re gonna conserve resources. And that could be the case here. I’m not sure it is because it could just be that, like I was saying, that the vagus nerve gets stuck in a certain deactivated state. And then just by giving a little little push, a little support, then it’s able to kick back into gear and help the body work more efficiently. But do you have any thoughts on that?

Vitalijus [00:52:36]:
I mean, maybe. But from others’ point of view, I mean, we are talking about vagus nerve stimulation. We need to understand that it’s a very fast approach. You don’t need to wear or or hold or whatever device for ages. It usually takes, like, a 5 minute per stimulation. I need to hold, let’s say, this device for 4 hours, like, 5 minutes, I know, twice per day. And even the hardest protocols, for example, for the cluster head pain or or or or migraine is like max 10 minutes simulation. You know? So, so it’s a quite, let’s say, relatively small amount of electricity.

Vitalijus [00:53:15]:
Okay. It’s targeted. It’s more mostly stronger, but it’s quite small amount of of electricity comparing what what it provides, you know, during the 24 hours and and etcetera. So this is the one thing. Other things still, there are I believe in for example, now one of the biggest probably, expert and signed person in the way was nerve, Kevin Tracy. He’s working on implantable, very precise device to treat arthritis. And, there is already several clinical trials about it. And it’s I mean, if you have arthritis, it’s a I mean, if if you can have the treatment like this, it’s like a life changing event, you know, for for for you.

Vitalijus [00:54:00]:
And there are, sadly, but there are a lot of people who have those kind of chronic things, you know, and for them, they can probably sacrifice possible long term theoretical consequences for the right now solution. Even now, for example, we made a study, a small study with the bacterium disease patients. You cannot imagine It’s a very rare disease. They have super strong joint pain. It’s inflammation with joint pain. And basically every morning, they have, like, a 3 hours of stiffness, super big stiffness. They’re waking up and then, you know, just 3 hours to be in the normal shape. You know? So when you’re doing something for this, in our case, we didn’t completely change the pain, you know, but we decreased the stiffness in in a lot of cases by a year and a half and etcetera.

Vitalijus [00:54:50]:
So for them, it’s like a game changer. You know, their mood is becoming better, and then they’re saying that the sleep is becoming subjective. But still, I mean, they they they are they are feeling completely different. You know? And and we are speaking and we are looking that those chronic people are representing bigger and bigger population of the of the world. You know? Then probably we need to to to focus on on positive things to know, short term positive things. But, yeah, let’s see what for example, Neuralink, you know, what kind of long term effect it will it will have. But still, I’m I’m I’m I’m big believer that it’s it’s comparing to drugs, it’s much, much, better. You know? And

Nick Urban [00:55:31]:
Yeah. And you’re right. That’s a a good point that if it helps them live their life, it helps them sleep better, eat better, do all these other things that are fundamental to their health. Even if it doesn’t have, like, a 100% pure benefits, it’ll help them get that baseline to which they can look at, okay. What are the possible root causes of whatever condition this is? Okay. I’m gonna work on these now. But if you’re just writhing in pain, unable to leave bed all day, it doesn’t matter how you’re able to track on the root causes. You can’t think through the root causes to begin with.

Nick Urban [00:56:01]:
You can’t go about implementing a lifestyle change if you can’t even, like, live your life.

Vitalijus [00:56:06]:
Exactly. Maybe what this is the spark to change your, like, everything. You know? And, maybe exactly this is the domino effect. Yeah. Maybe by changing your mood, you are better sleeping and then, you know, you’re changing your other behaviors and etcetera. So, yeah, it’s it’s it’s a philosophical. It’s a good point, of course. I mean, you don’t know what it will be after 15 years of the vagus nerve stimulation.

Vitalijus [00:56:29]:
I mean, but you don’t know probably what will be if you 50 years, we’ll consume omega 3. No. Maybe maybe it also will be some negative loop or whatever. You know? So it’s, yeah. Do you

Nick Urban [00:56:41]:
know of any effect on the hormones?

Vitalijus [00:56:43]:
Yeah. There are we we we we never dig so deep in in level of the cortisol, yet because it’s more complicated because this hormone has, like, cycles. Yeah. And getting written is very influencing this hormone. So you can make wrong conclusions. It’s very dependable, you know, on on on, let’s say, endocrine system health, of the person. It’s very dependable on the on the day duration, you know, or morning. It’s different from, let’s say, middle of the day and etcetera.

Vitalijus [00:57:19]:
But, but there are I mean, of course, it’s a link between the cortisol and and and the vagus nerve stimulation, cortisol decreasement. But it’s quite harder to to to to make the call let’s say, complete correlation between those two things.

Nick Urban [00:57:35]:
Yeah. Absolutely. You have to look at metabolites, and you have to figure out a way of sampling it multiple times throughout the day using, like, a Dutch test or some kind of other testing. And it’s

Vitalijus [00:57:43]:
the gorma level, it’s like a Santa Barbara. You know, this kind of, it’s like the the those gormas, like, they’re like enemies and friends. They’re influencing each other. I mean, it’s it’s it’s a crazy world. I mean, it’s it’s it’s it’s crazy.

Nick Urban [00:57:58]:
One thing I’ve heard about when people use these types of devices is that oftentimes, they’ll experience a heightening of their senses. So their vision becomes a bit sharper. They can hear sounds more clearly. Have you heard about that?

Vitalijus [00:58:12]:
We have a lot of cases that people are, have vivid dreams. I mean, we cannot explain this, but it’s also not only with our device, but also with other devices, you know, who are tackling the vagus nerve. I’m not super big believer in in in this because for me, it’s already a little bit out of science field, you know, it’s, I mean, more psychology probably, but, of course, it’s related to science at the same time. Yeah. And and and we have some, let’s say, ketamine clinics who are using Pulcetto with ketamine, you know, in synergy. So, I mean, I spoke with to some of them. They believe that’s, it’s a perfect synergy, you know, with it. There is so many angles to know what you can test and try, and we are only 2 and a half year company.

Vitalijus [00:59:04]:
So we want to to like, in Pareto case, we want to focus on the most important things. And now, for example, we’re preparing a big big trial, in Lithuania for Ukraine, to one more time to see, to prove, you know, etcetera. It’s a big topic, you know, because it can it can handle a lot of, you know, people problems and etcetera.

Nick Urban [00:59:22]:
There’s a lot of interest in the whole vagus nerve field right now. And I’ve seen, like, new medical devices coming out and being developed pretty much every day. Do you know why? Like, what has led to the explosion in the last couple years?

Vitalijus [00:59:38]:
You know, even pharma industry, they started to look to those, let’s say, electric stimulation devices not as enemies anymore, but as possible friends. It is even, I read a few studies that, for example, if you’re mixing drugs, for example, you’re doing protocol of of medical drugs and then you’re doing electric stimulation, it can create even synergetic effect or reverse situation. First of all, you’re doing stimulation protocol and then you’re consuming some kind of, let’s say, drugs. So pharma started to see, as I don’t know. Something like Philip Morris and Electric Cigarettes. And at one point, they realized that it’s not anime anymore. It’s like, you know, continuity of the their business. So so there are a lot of acquisitions from from pharma industry, and a lot of interest from this side, and they have money.

Vitalijus [01:00:31]:
So that’s why, you know, it’s a quite, industry is quite growing. And and also in general, I mean, when we when we look into the Vegas nerve, I remember 5 years ago, it was, when you insert it in the YouTube vagus nerve, it was like a 3 videos. So now it’s like, we have automated, like, a Slack channel every time that something new is posted on YouTube about Wegos Nest. We are getting this, like, message. So it’s like a 10 videos per day, something like that. You know, the trend is is growing, growing, growing like crazy. So, the the the the commercial trend is growing because of, let’s say, of us, of other companies who are doing education in this field, but at the same time, also, like I said, the pharma is also inserting big money. Just just a simple example, by the way.

Vitalijus [01:01:19]:
Do you know why sleep wearables, sleep products became so trendy? It was like a 7 years ago. The first the first growth of the term. Because pharma at one point started to promote hugely sleep drugs. And they spent 1,000,000, you know, on on this, and then they move out of this topic. And then, you know, suddenly, because of this, let’s say, huge effect of on media, then Aura came and VoIP, vehicle devices, then the mattresses, cars, you know, and etcetera. But, basically, that pharma created the fundament of the growth, you know, and etcetera. So

Nick Urban [01:01:57]:
How are biohackers using this? I I’m already thinking of different use cases of, like, how to get synergies and make this and other things more effective, such as using a VNS, and I should have used that acronym a long time ago to save us thousands of words. But using it before meals to help stimulate digestion or before meditation sessions to help you go deeper, faster, perhaps before red light? Like, what are the different ways you see, like, more innovative ways of using it?

Vitalijus [01:02:25]:
Yeah. So so very good point. A lot of the hackers are using before food for the digestion because there are some enzymes for the release also during the stimulation. A lot of people are using before sleep or, for example, if they are waking in the middle of the night and they cannot go to sleep anymore, because the vagus nerve stimulation cannot increase, I don’t know, your deep sleep or whatever, but it can tackle with latency of the sleep, especially if you have troubles, you know, to to to go to the sleep. There is, a lot of people

Nick Urban [01:02:51]:
who are using

Vitalijus [01:02:51]:
after the hard training, especially in the mornings because your HRV is dropping, something like that. Also, in the morning, because as always, Cortisol is jumping and etcetera before very intensive meeting or or or or let’s say before you’re going on the stage and you see that you have, like, really fight and flight. And you need to find the sweet spot. You don’t want, like I said, to be too relaxed, but you don’t want to be too, like, you know, narrow on your on your thoughts, and etcetera. So this this is the typical cases, but bill hackers was the first segment of our customers. The majority of our customers are chronic I mean, sick people. It’s chronic stress, panic attacks, insomnia. It’s it’s it’s the main main main target.

Vitalijus [01:03:46]:
You know? And, you cannot imagine how how many people have these these conditions. You know?

Nick Urban [01:03:52]:
What’s cool about this is you can use them on both sides for helping with conditions and then also for the people who are healthy already, get a little greater performance. One other one I was just thinking of that I would like to try at some point would be to stack this before a brain training neurofeedback session. So to do some VNS before that and then do the neurofeedback afterward and hopefully get a more neuroplastic state where I’m able to retain the changes and improvements for longer.

Vitalijus [01:04:21]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. But there are very interesting, sir. For example, we have 1, big, dentistry office in UK who are who put Pulseto in the waiting room. Because before you are going to this, you know, procedure, you are like, it’s it’s it’s it’s a very stressful procedure. Then, for example, one clinic in Europe, they’re using in MRT, you know, this, when you’re doing this magnetic resonance, stuff for your head, you’re you’re putting in in some kind of closed box, you know, and there are people who are claustrophobic, and they’re just afraid to be in the magnetic, this machine. And, they are taking, like, the pills, you know.

Vitalijus [01:05:07]:
And instead of pills, they’re using Pulsato. I mean and they are like super happy. So there are a lot of interesting cases, how to use. But, yeah, you are right. Meditation to boost the meditation, especially if you can’t meditate. I was surprised how many people can’t meditate because for me it seems that meditation is very simple, but that is not simple. Yeah. It’s it needs dedicated practice.

Vitalijus [01:05:30]:
So it’s like a shortcut or or booster or, you know, they are meditating to together with a rigorous nurse too much. So, yeah, there are a lot of implications how how to use it. But typically, it’s like a morning, evening, you know, before sleep and in in in the morning. It’s like a 2 most important, let’s say, times.

Nick Urban [01:05:46]:
Yeah. I love the idea of using it around any events that could seem stressful. Say you have your fear of heights or public speaking or whatever it is, then you can use it before that and perhaps with a natural substance or otherwise to help, like, reframe your fear response to certain things if you want to. I mean, certain cases that you don’t necessarily wanna do that. But if you want to get over something, there are some cool ingredients out there that are a bit safer than some of the other ones that could go into the one of those stacks.

Vitalijus [01:06:17]:
Yeah. I remember on December, I went to Turkey, to Istanbul. It’s a it’s a crazy city. I was driving, like, 14 kilometers, 2 hours, and those Turkey drivers are crazy. They’re I mean, like this, you know, and etcetera. And I was in such a a fight and flight, really. I mean, I was, like, driving like this. And then I realized that I have Pulsato with me.

Vitalijus [01:06:40]:
I just put Pulsato, you know, because I mean, otherwise, it was like a terrible one and a half hour of driving experience, you know. And, so, yeah, you can find you can find the areas, but the most important is to understand where you are the stress full most. You know what? I really glad that, for example, ordering has already the stress stress, let’s say, level data. I’m also wearing not now, but I’m wearing no watch, very interesting brand from Netherlands. They are Philips back end. It’s basically watch, which I can say even better predicts your stress levels. Because whenever, for example, you’re doing physical activity, Aura says that you are unstressed, or something like that. In case of no watch, they really say that, okay.

Vitalijus [01:07:28]:
Now you you at that at that moment, it was on the physical activity, but we see that that that that you see on different data that you are on test. So they are more accurate in my opinion, from my first test, things. So when whenever you you see this, let’s say, day time periods when you’re stressed, you see this the patterns. Yeah. For example, I know there are specific meetings when you’re in in in higher stress. Yeah. There are specific events in your life that you are in higher stress. So then you need to do it before or during those events or those meetings.

Vitalijus [01:07:59]:
So, for example, to wear the falsetto in the quite tough meeting, it’s one of the one of the one of the ways to know how how we can be, let’s say, more productive or more relaxed, let’s say, to find the sweet spot in this meeting, you know, etcetera.

Nick Urban [01:08:13]:
Cool. Well, Vitalias, we will start to wind this one down. If people want to connect with you to grab a device, how do they go about that?

Vitalijus [01:08:22]:
Our official website is spulcetto.tech. Also, you can find on Amazon in in in US. At the same time, you can always write to me personally, the. Tech. But, this the I mean, official website is the is the best place to know where to where to buy, or check more information about our product.

Nick Urban [01:08:45]:
I think I have a code for listeners. If you guys use the code, I wanna say it’s urban. I’ll put in the show notes. That’ll save you on your order as well. Are there any resources you recommend people check out to learn more about the vagus nerve and vagus nerve stimulation specifically?

Vitalijus [01:09:02]:
You’re gonna find, Stanley Rosenberg. He’s a very nice science person, and he wrote a book about the vagus nerve. A lot of data and a lot of exercises about it. Those who wanna go deeper, I really encourage follow Kevin Tracy and, his work, at this moment. I believe that he’s one of the top, let’s say, experts in this field, and and he’s doing really good stuff. We, as a company, also providing more and more content in in in in this topic.

Nick Urban [01:09:34]:
Perfect. Finally, what is one thing that the Palcetto tribe does not know about you?

Vitalijus [01:09:40]:
I re really big believer that, we will create very universal product, which consists minimum of 10 30 different signals. And, it will be life changing for a lot of, people. So this this this is the thing. But I believe that also that they never knew about my sleep experiments, which I described. By the way, now I’m collecting the third part for the 100 nights, and now it’s becoming even more sophisticated stuff. My one friend, owned me the specific tent, where I need to sleep. It’s like a high 2 tent and etcetera. And by this tent, you are losing the oxygen, but at the same time, that amount of the rest cells will increase.

Vitalijus [01:10:31]:
So I am collecting the list of of those very unique stuff, you know, in order to test for the sleep. So probably this is my passion. I have very big passion of of sleep, you know, hacking and testing different, things. And, yeah, one day maybe I will write more about those experiments, you know, etcetera.

Nick Urban [01:10:51]:
Yeah. I was gonna say I encourage you to create a list and share that online somewhere so we can all follow along to see what you’ve been testing and what’s worked so far for you and what hasn’t.

Vitalijus [01:11:02]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Nick Urban [01:11:02]:
Cool. Well, thank you so much for joining the podcast. I’ve had a blast learning about VNS Tech and what you guys are working on over at Palcetto.

Vitalijus [01:11:12]:
Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks.

Nick Urban [01:11:15]:
Thank you for tuning in to this episode. Head over to Apple Music, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts and leave a rating. Every review helps me bring you thought provoking guests. As always, you can find the show notes for this one at mindbodypeak.com / and then the number of the episode. There, you can also chat with other peak performers or connect with me directly. The information depicted in this podcast is for information purposes only. Please consult your primary health care professional before making any lifestyle changes.