Effortless Fat Loss, Beating Weight Rebound & Debunking Fad Diets

Nick Urban [00:00:07]:
Are you a high performer secrets to unlocking the full potential of your mind, body, and spirit. We’ll learn from some of the world’s leading minds, from ancient wisdom to cutting edge tools and everything in between. This is your host, Nick Urban. Enjoy the episode. Are you confused about diet, whether carnivore or plant based is the way to go for your health, your performance, your longevity. What about the rest of health outside diet? Perhaps the best type of exercise, whether it’s aerobics like running or anaerobics such as resistance training or HIIT, or maybe it’s just about the best time to do things. Should you exercise in the morning or evening? Should you skip breakfast or dinner or neither? The world of health is only getting more confusing as new studies come out that seem to refute the previous ones. To make things even more confusing, then you have the layer of influencers on Instagram and other platforms tearing down the research, debunking it, while at the same time promoting entirely different things.

Nick Urban [00:01:36]:
I was excited because our guest this week really did a great job in his recent book called The Way of Dispelling the Confusion, coming up with simple heuristics you can use to evaluate any new information to determine if it’ll be healthy over the long term or if it’ll be another passing fad. Some of the many topics we discuss in this interview include immune centric health, how that paradigm is disrupting just about everything. We talk about the gut microbiome. We talk about GLP 1. Yes. The hot topic that drugs like semaglutide and liraglutide and tirzepatide all target to help reduce body weight. We talk about the indispensable role of polyphenols in the diet, not just for human cells, but for your microbiome. We talk about butyrate and other postbiotics and short chain fatty acids.

Nick Urban [00:02:40]:
We discuss how you can beat weight regain. Whether you’re using one of those aforementioned weight loss drugs or not, it’s well known that the more times you lose weight and then regain it, the more resistant you become to losing weight again in the future, and our guest this week has an answer to that. You’ll learn about the true role of fiber in the human diet. Yes. It goes beyond just butyrate production, which butyrate in itself is highly but there’s also hydrogen gas production, which can be beneficial and a whole lot more. You will learn the 80 20 of probiotics. Instead of focusing on the entire world, just by focusing on 2 types, you can get a lot of the benefits, and how I use that same protocol to reverse my dairy intolerance. Now whether you’re a seasoned biohacker or just like to occasionally dip your toes into the world of nutrition, you’ll appreciate our guests’ must have mechanisms for health.

Nick Urban [00:03:48]:
If you pick up his book, you’ll see that he’s able to argue quite convincingly for both the carnivore diet as well as veganism and how the best approach lies, surprisingly, somewhere in between. But no matter your diet, the tips this week’s guest shares will help you do whatever diet that is better. Our guest this week is Joel Green. He’s a seasoned entrepreneur, previously built 2 multimillion dollar tech startups. In 2007, he authored the first article introducing the gut biome to the health and fitness community. Since 2009, he has amassed the world’s largest body of outcomes with over 16,000 cases focusing on body composition through gut health. There you have it. He was the 1st gut guy.

Nick Urban [00:04:42]:
Joel also developed one of the earliest digital nutrition start up services, the Veep Nutrition System, and has consulted for $1,000,000,000 nutrition companies like Quest Nutrition, tackling complex challenges such as food engineering for lifespan extension. His work has been featured on doctor Phil and in top tier publications, like Muscle and Fitness and CBS online. Joel is also the author of immunity code, a groundbreaking approach to immune centric health, developed over 3 years. If this interview interests you, I suggest you check out the immune code first because that lays the foundation for all of this. And then Joel’s new book, The Way, is an extension of his previous work and talks about actually implementing the different nutritional strategies he describes and lightly touches on in The Immunity Code. Alright. Sit back, relax, and enjoy my conversation with Joel Green. Joel, welcome to the podcast.

Joel Greene [00:05:54]:
Hey. Welcome, Nick. Thanks for having me.

Nick Urban [00:05:56]:
I’ve been looking forward to this conversation since I read your book, The Immune Code. I wanna say a little over a year ago, I tested some of the things that you mentioned in that, and it was like a recipe with Lego blocks of you have this issue, try this protocol, mix and match. It was great read, highly recommended. And you recently released a new book called The Way, and that is a great add on to your previous work. And before we get started today, let’s warm up with what you view as an optimal morning in terms of the information superhighway as you called it in your book?

Joel Greene [00:06:37]:
Basically, a lot of it just has to do with making sure you’re sleeping really sound, like, from at certain hours of the night. So definitely between 2 and 4 p 4:4 AM, you’ll wanna be sleeping really, really good, really good because that’s the genetic rush hour. And then something I do 3 times a week, is what I call the amplified fast. And so it’s a fast, but the whole idea is that we’re basically trying to supercharge the benefits of fasting without having to fast very long. And so it’s set up actually by the diet the day before, which is mostly foraging foods. So the the really, really interesting thing is when you look at this, it’s it’s quite fascinating. The the microbiome and the gut immune axis essentially mimic the benefits of fasting when you look at all the signal pathways. And it it actually makes sense.

Joel Greene [00:07:30]:
Like, if you if you think about it and if you break it down, like, kinda makes sense that in a in a foraging state, the body’s gonna go into a state where it’s slowing the aging process until it gets food that is, what I would call maybe really mTOR centric, food that’s gonna drive mTOR, which is, you know, meat and fish and, you know, dense situating food. So it kinda makes sense that, when the body’s in a foraging state, it’s kinda slowing the aging process, and and the microbiome seem to have a hand in that. And so that that’s kind of the basis of the gut immune axis. And then that just really leads into a nice sequence, which is, number 1, technology. I use my Captain Picard voice for that technology number 1, which is, small molecules. And just, I use different stacks of small molecules, so, for different reasons, but kind of my mainstay these days is nac and glycine. And, you know, that one didn’t bubble up until about 2021, but, if you read the research on it, it’s it’s really compelling. I mean, n a c glycine seems to reverse quite a few quite a few markers of aging.

Joel Greene [00:08:42]:
And so that’s my that’s my foundation is the n a c glycine, and it’s a product I have called Youngbody, which also has alpha ketoglutarate. And, surprisingly, I don’t know if you read this one, but there was a study a few about 3 years ago, and it showed, like, your number one small molecule longevity agent was aspirin. It beat metformin. Beat rapamycin, it beat everything. So, I use white willow bark instead, but so that’s kind of my foundation these days. And then on top of that, I will stack you know, depending on what I’m looking for, I’ll stack different things. So I might use fisetin if I’m looking for more senolysis. I might use, ketones if I’m looking for, you know, other things, but but that’s the basics.

Joel Greene [00:09:26]:
And then it’s just a combination of, making of exercise and getting cold, and then a few things around that and fasting. And that that’s that’s kind of basic stack, really.

Nick Urban [00:09:37]:
Very simple. Let’s dig into one of the core parts of your work, and that is the whole concept of immune centric health. Because as far as I can tell, you were the one to popularize that topic. And in your book, the immune code, one of the first things you had readers do is consume what I consumed this morning, which is a combination of HMO, apple peel powder, and a reds polyphenols drink.

Joel Greene [00:10:05]:
Yeah. So apple peel powder is not really in the mix anymore. That was, kind of a it was apple peels. Apple peels was the thing. So apple peels, red phenols, and HMO. So the basis of the immunity code as a as a concept is the gut immune axis. That’s the basis of it and it’s interesting when you when you look at the gut immune axis and you look at like where the Bifidobacteria interfaces with the human immune system, it’s really compelling because here you have kind of a a simple lever that we can pull, very simple lever that involves really just optimizing levels of Befidobacteria. And then in turn, Befidobacteria is pretty interesting.

Joel Greene [00:10:53]:
It does a number of things. Number 1, it works in concert with acromancy and muciniphila. And acromancy and muciniphila is the other component, I would say, of the of the the conspicuous gut immune access where it maintains the gut lining. But the really interesting thing is that bifidobacteria regulates levels of Achromancy, so it keeps you from getting too much Achromancy. So if you have you know, if you’re stimulating just Achromancy but decreasing bifido as certain diets do, it’s not a good thing optimally. But when you look at, like, how these 2 bacteria interface with the human immune system, very compelling, very compelling. So you have, the action of of the photo bacteria on antigen sampling. And that’s essentially the photobacteria potentiates, certain types of cells in the gut, dendritic cells, and it potentiates their antigen sampling.

Joel Greene [00:11:47]:
And as a result, entire patterns of microbial signals are affected downstream, and that influences t cell ratios, influences all sorts of really important things. And then, influences a lot of other things, secretory IgA and all the all these things that they got. So all that to say that it’s a very simple formula that is the core of the immunity code that optimizes the levels of these 2 bacteria, and it’s designed where you stimulate them optimally. We don’t get too much. And my whole goal originally with it was to create the the most impact with the least effort, the least time. And so that’s why it’s the center of the immunity code is optimizing those 2 bacteria through human milk oligosaccharides, through, apple peels, and through red phenols. And and all those things play a part in stimulating that picture. And so that’s, yeah, kind of the kind of the long answer or short answer.

Nick Urban [00:12:50]:
Yep. So those 2 are the highest impact, the bifidobacteria and the acromensia. Once you get enough the right level of those, then it seems like everything else starts to fall into place. Since you’re not using the apple peels anymore, are you using anything else? Because as far as I recall, that was one of the important components of the original recipe.

Joel Greene [00:13:09]:
Well, we do use the apple peels. The the difference is the powder. So apple peel powder, you don’t if you’re using my products, there’s there’s there’s a couple copycats that came out after my book was published, which, meant to be expected, you know, you’re gonna especially if especially if it works, you’re gonna see copycats. One of the key compounds in apple peels, we we found more concentrated. It’s much more concentrated in aronia. And so we dosed we dosed up my red fin all with aronia. And so that way, if you can’t handle apple peels, and some people can’t because they have allergies, then you get the best of both.

Nick Urban [00:13:44]:
Gotcha. Yeah. The powder is pretty hard to consume anyway. It was not water soluble at all. So it’s it’s good to know. So once you work on those, I mean, like, what’s the role of the immune system in general? Because I think when most people hear the immune system, they immediately picture pathogens and potentially getting sick or not getting sick. And you lay out, like, an elegant case that it’s much more than just about that.

Joel Greene [00:14:06]:
Yeah. So what gets very interesting is when you look at organs, what you see is that the immune system seems to kinda be the regulator of the organs. It seems to regulate organ function, and it does this primarily through t cells and macrophages, the different components of the immune system. And that, in turn, impacts everything. I mean, everything. In the new book, the conspicuous case that I gave is post workout because we don’t think of the immune system generally being associated to post workout. And that’s that’s where it gets really, really interesting as a as a as a as a use case because if you if you just think about it for a second, post workout so the muscles are an organ. Post workout is entirely governed by the immune system.

Joel Greene [00:14:59]:
100% governed by the immune system. So let’s walk it through. Immediately post workout. So I’m talking weight workouts. I’m talking resistance exercise, but really it applies to anything. But take the case of immediately post workout. The thing that has to happen is new and recruitment, meaning you need to get inflamed. You need to get really inflamed.

Joel Greene [00:15:24]:
And so what this does is the second that we go, okay. That’s what has to happen. It kinda it it eliminates a lot of things and it adds a lot of things. The things it eliminates are antioxidants, and and you’ll see a lot of, like, products are dosed with antioxidants as post workouts. It just suddenly go, what? Gosh. Did you did you hire anybody that knows what they’re doing? What what? Because the worst thing you could do post workout is take antioxidants. Worst thing. Because you’re squashing all of that inflammatory signaling.

Joel Greene [00:15:55]:
So contrary to maybe what our intuition might tell us, the thing we need to do post workout is get as inflamed as possible. You wanna get as inflamed as you possibly can. You want as in fact, what I think is interesting is when you study what happens with age, what you see is with people who are older, young people get really inflamed plus workout. There’s a lot of immune cell recruitment, a lot of immune recruitment, a lot of immune signal recruitment, so they get, specific signals like interleukin 1 b, interleukin 6, all these immune tnafalfa, all of these immune recruiters go high. Doesn’t happen in older people. Odd. But then what happens is the resolution phase. So now the resolution phase typically kicks in begins to kick in 8 hours later, but but most strongly kicks in about 24 hours post exercise.

Joel Greene [00:16:45]:
Now that’s when we need to spin down inflammation. So that’s when the antioxidants make their case. What you see in older people is they just keep getting more inflamed. So 2 days goes by, 3 days or 4 days go by, and they’re, not really recovering. And it’s, yeah. You’re old. And so in young people, they get really inflamed post workout, and then it resolves, and they and they can put on muscle. In old people, they just they don’t get inflamed post workout.

Joel Greene [00:17:11]:
They just get chronically sore the longer you get past the workout. And so what you have is the muscles are staying inflamed, and it creates muscle damage. So so that as a template for understanding the immune system’s control over everything is a good case because it tells us what to do. Like, immediately, post workout, we need to go in the sauna. We need to take some things that are kind of any, some free radicals. We need we need some citrulline. We need some nitric oxide. We need free radicals post workout.

Joel Greene [00:17:42]:
We need to get hot. We need to get inflamed. Conversely. And the reason is we want immune recruitment. And then 24 hours later, that’s when we want the antioxidants. Antioxidants. That’s when we want, you know, the NAC and all these other things. So that’s a just a use case, but what it shows us is this dominion that the immune system has over this thing we don’t even think of, which is post workout.

Nick Urban [00:18:05]:
Yeah. And I’m not sure if you were the one to say it or someone else, but I’ve heard it called the organ system of regeneration and rejuvenation and repair.

Joel Greene [00:18:15]:
The immune system? Oh, Yeah. That that that wasn’t me.

Nick Urban [00:18:21]:
And then when you talk about gut health, you’re one of the few people I’ve seen mention a specific sequence. If you wanna, say, lose weight, which is a big part of the immune code, you don’t just do things that people traditionally do. Just pop a bunch of probiotics and exercise harder and eat less. In your book, you made a case like, okay. These are the things you do in this order for a particular reason.

Joel Greene [00:18:44]:
As it pertains to all that stuff, you know, we have to take into account a lot of things. We have to take into account timing, dose, duration. We have to take all these things into account because at the end of the day, the the one law there’s only one law of the body, and that’s homeostasis. That, it’s I you know, and I’m sure you’ve studied this stuff at length. There’s no limit to how mind boggling the complexity is to the the the mechanisms within the human body. I mean, it just keeps going and going and going. And you think you know something, and it just gets more complex and more complex and more complex. And so all that says that there’s this fascinating homeostasis going on with with, within the body.

Joel Greene [00:19:23]:
And what it calls for is sort of an understanding of if we’re gonna do something, we need to kinda do it in the right way, the right timing, the right dose, all these all these types of things.

Nick Urban [00:19:33]:
Break down what the more scientific, more modern approach is to weight loss because timing is a big component of it. But that you don’t wanna just jump straight into exercising super hard and restricting calories intensely and just doing that for particular reasons.

Joel Greene [00:19:50]:
Big underlying reason why I wrote both books has to do with a framework that you would only discover through making tons and tons of mistakes. I think what’s interesting just to draw a quick analogy here is, there’s a framework that exists everywhere else except in nutrition and diet, and this framework incorporates time. So if you look at SSRIs and you read the research, there’s an immediate framework you run into that incorporates the long tail immediately. And it says, okay. Well, here’s what we know. SSRIs prove all these benefits upfront, but long term, there’s all these negatives, and we’re not sure they’re worth it. That’s that’s what it says. So that’s very different from when they first came out, which is, oh, yeah.

Joel Greene [00:20:29]:
Prozac. Listen to Prozac. It makes you feel amazing. It’s great. There’s nothing wrong with it. Right? So that’s a framework that incorporates time. That’s missing when it comes to weight loss. That’s missing when it comes to diet.

Joel Greene [00:20:40]:
The reason that we have that framework with SSRIs is because there’s a reality you’re gonna run headlong into if you don’t know that upfront, which is you can do more harm than good. That’s missing when it comes to diet. The framework of time and mistakes needs to be there and and I’m gonna go over it right now And I hope anybody listening to this If you ever get one thing about diet, get this, which is number 1, there’s a few things you need to understand upfront. Number 1 is there’s what I call the first time effect, and it’s that if you’ve never really done dropped appreciable amounts of weight before, if you’ve never taken your body through a weight loss journey, your body’s gonna respond incredibly well, and it’ll respond well to any diet. Doesn’t matter what it is. Okay? And it’s not the diet. It’s the fact that the body is fresh. It’s the fact that body doesn’t have repeated stress of dropping body fat, and dropping body fat is very stressful in the body.

Joel Greene [00:21:38]:
There are stress hormones that are enacted. All f g f hormones, for example, would be stress hormones enacted by dropping fat. So all that to say, the first time you do it, any diet’s gonna work. And if you don’t know that, you’re gonna go into it thinking, oh, I did carnivore. It was incredible. Or I did keto. It’s everybody should do keto. Or I did I did whatever, and whatever is amazing.

Joel Greene [00:22:03]:
What you have to understand is that, no, it’s not the diet. It’s the fact you did it the first time, and you’ll find that’s true of anything. Okay? It’s true of anything. The second thing is the weight rebound effect. If you ever get one thing about diet, like, get this. And it’s just that, statistically, we know this is true. 90, 95 percent of people that do a weight loss journey are gonna regain a 100% of the weight in 5 years. Okay? We know it’s true.

Joel Greene [00:22:27]:
Around this topic is the most inane stupidity imaginable dressed up as expertise. And it it comes cloaked in in phrases like, no. No. It’s because you gotta just put in the work. No. It’s because you gotta just maintain the commitment. You know? All that stuff, whatever degree of truth there might be there, is bereft of any understanding of actual physical mechanisms that your body has, and they are designed to protect you. They are designed to keep you from starving to death.

Joel Greene [00:22:59]:
And, collectively, these mechanisms work to efficiently regain weight. I think I’ve read I don’t know of any papers on this subject I haven’t read. Maybe there are, but I’ve read as many as I could find. And they’re very clear that no the body is designed to efficiently put on lost body fat and it’s an adaption it’s a starvation defense So any diet, any weight loss journey is very high chance of provoking the weight rebound effect. And so the most likely outcome for most people I’m talking a bell curve here. The most likely outcome is not one and done. I I did my weight loss journey, and I overcame it. You can find examples of that.

Joel Greene [00:23:37]:
That’s I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. But for most people, the middle of the bell curve, what’s gonna happen is you spawn decades of chronic weight cycling. That’s what happens. Decades of chronic weight cycling where we call it yo yo dieting. We call it different things. But but the key thing to understand is that you did something. You dropped a bunch of body fat. Give it about 5 years.

Joel Greene [00:24:00]:
It all came back and did something new, and, you know, repeated the pattern, repeated the pattern, but, eventually, something starts happening. And that’s it. It gets very, very hard to drop the body fat all of a sudden. You know? The more cycles of fat loss you’re taking the body into, particularly as you get older, gets very, very difficult. And then what I hear all the time now, people over people over 50, is I I just can’t lose weight anymore. I just can’t drop. No. I’ve tried everything, and it and and you always hear the same thing.

Joel Greene [00:24:27]:
Oh, it works so well. I I did I did Atkins. It worked great the first time, and it doesn’t work now. And now I’m looking for the new thing that works. So all that’s to say, what you’re speaking to, there’s a framework that’s missing. It’s an understanding of okay. Your body has mechanisms that are designed to efficiently regain body fat, and that’s in response to starvation. Your body thinks fat loss is starvation.

Joel Greene [00:24:52]:
The next thing is that it’s very easy to deceive yourself thinking that the first time you drop body fat, it was the diet. It wasn’t. It was just the fact your body was fresh. So that so so I I give that as a framework, and I hope anybody hearing this just downloads that into their brain because it’ll completely change how you approach fat loss. It means that your 2 imperatives going into any weight loss journey, your biggest imperative is to beat the weight rebound. That’s your biggest imperative, particularly now in the age of Ozempic. Like, that’s your biggest imperative is to beat the weight rebound. And the second is to really understand that the goal is to find real and lasting health.

Joel Greene [00:25:33]:
And real and lasting health, you gotta have certain things present. You’ve got to have the gut immune access. You’ve got to have optimal insulin function. Like, if if you have a diet and it improves insulin function short term and degrades it long term, it’s not gonna work.

Nick Urban [00:25:53]:
Right. So let’s reverse engineer this. If I came to you and I said I want to lose and drop weight, would you have me focus on any particular sequence of events? Like, would I wanna focus on sealing and healing my gut lining before I did it do everything else? Because as far as I understand, there’s an order that helps make sure that the changes last and persist regardless of whatever way I eat.

Joel Greene [00:26:18]:
Yeah. So so this is the immune centric approach to losing body fat. And so the first thing is the gut, and the first thing is to optimize the microbiome in the gut. The reason for that is a chain of events that happens if you don’t do that. And, essentially, it’s this. It’s very common. I’m sure you run into this a lot. It’s very common nowadays to hear people talking about gut issues, talking about, dysbiosis, bloating.

Joel Greene [00:26:43]:
I mean, it’s very, very, very common. One of the one of the unintended consequences of that is that you’re getting seepage into the serum of bacterial fragments like lipopolysaccharide, which is a a cell wall fragment of bacteria. It’s toxin. It has an affinity for body fat. It tends to lodge in body fat. And what it does is it is it brings immune cells with it. So you get these inflammatory immune cells in body fat, and what they do is they act like traffic cops. They they turn on the red lights and the sirens, and they start calling in other immune cells.

Joel Greene [00:27:22]:
And so as a result, it’s very common to have inflamed fat. And the problem with inflamed fat is that eventually inflamed fat becomes insulin resistant. And insulin resistant fat eventually will drive insulin resistance in muscles, and then insulin resistance in muscles eventually drives fat deposition in organs. So you begin to deposit fat where it shouldn’t go, especially in the muscle. And then that drives another problem, which is a feedback loop that withers muscle and drives all kinds of problems. We call it SAS phenotype. But all that to say, if we trace it all back, reverse engineer it, kinda began in the gut. So to solve our problems long term, we have to first address the gut immune axis, which seals the gut, prevents lipopolysaccharide from getting into fat.

Joel Greene [00:28:10]:
So that’s the first thing. And along with that, the next step is taking body fat and, for lack of a better word, making it healthier. And in other words, changing the types of immune cells in body fat, flipping them, and it’s it’s it’s quite easy to do, actually, surprisingly. So the way that you the way you steer and guide immune cells is through sugars. So different types of sugars, have a a very powerful impact on immune cells. So we can feed certain types of sugars like mannose, trilose, ribose, just different types of sugars will steer immune cells in different directions, and those sugars in a fasted state have a very powerful impact. So the next step is just getting body fat down and overcoming the weight rebound effect while you’re doing that. And and so there’s there’s a lot of different tricks to doing that, but the easy one to understand is that periodically as body fat’s coming down, you need massive meals timed in the right place in the right way.

Joel Greene [00:29:19]:
Typically breakfast, typically loaded with high levels of protein. And it’s the timing. It’s it’s morning where they’re gonna the calories are gonna increase metabolism. And then finally, post fat loss, you need to offset. You need to attack the all of the points that drive the rebound. So that’s kind of a a a big sketch for it.

Nick Urban [00:29:40]:
So most people start with the meals and the exercise, like, right in the middle. But if you were to go back the to the first level, and that is sealing and healing and repairing the gut lining, is that gonna be through the, like, driving the production of the bacteria you mentioned a minute ago?

Joel Greene [00:29:56]:
Yeah. It’s very simple. It’s just the basics of the immunity code, which is the the gut reset designed to shape those two taxa of bifidobacteria and necromancy, which affects the gut immune access, also affects, insulin function significantly. Significantly. So Bifidobacterium necromancy, you know, so the whole new the whole new Ozempic thing, it’s all about it’s all about GLP 1, it’s all about insulin sensitivity. Well, the missing component is the microbiome. In fact, you can’t have optimal insulin function without an optimized microbiome. It’s impossible.

Joel Greene [00:30:32]:
Which is why when you reverse engineer a lot of modern diets, they actually disrupt the ratios of Akkermansia and Mucinephilia and bifidobacteria. For example, carnivore diets. They will you can get an increase in Akkermansia, but you’ll get a decrease in befido. That’s not good. People who aren’t who aren’t familiar with the ratio or or the control point of befido over akkermansia, they’ll hear, oh, well, gosh. My carnivore diet increased Akramansia. Yeah. It’s not good.

Nick Urban [00:31:01]:
Gotcha. And are we providing the body with any other nutrients at this point, or do those come later things like, say, the amino acids, the minerals, the like, trying to drive butyrate production, short chain fatty acid production? Does that happen later?

Joel Greene [00:31:15]:
The way that I’ve structured it in the immunity code is the first thing you do is the gut reset because to get to real and lasting health, you need a balanced diet. I hate to break it to everybody, but that’s just the truth. Okay.

Nick Urban [00:31:28]:
It’s the most controversial diet these days. Being an omnivore, eating omnivorously has become controversial. And in your book, the way you really nicely argue both sides intensely of going plant based and becoming a vegan and at the same time, a carnivore and how it’s easy to take the science and twist it to fit any dietary narrative. But, actually, when you combine them, you set up each to work better. So you eat foraging foods, and then you set up the body. You prime it to process and offset the negatives of the feasting foods, the meat.

Joel Greene [00:32:07]:
Yeah. A distortion of this era is that it’s the polarization. We have taken these hyperpolarized viewpoints that, you know, a given thing is only good. You see it on both sides. In fact, what I think is kinda funny is if you examine the underlying structure of today’s diets, it doesn’t matter what the argument is. It’s the same underlying structure. It’s it’s an equation. It’s these are insert good foods, eat these, and avoid, insert bad foods.

Joel Greene [00:32:41]:
Don’t eat those because if you do, insert pathology. And the only difference is they’re swapping the foods. That’s it. It’s the same formula. It’s so if I’m a carnivore, it’s, no, eat meat, meat’s healing. These are your insert benefits. Avoid plants. If you do, these are your pathologies if you eat plants.

Joel Greene [00:32:59]:
You know, oxalate overload and phytate, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. And then it’s just reversed. So, no, you’re wrong. Meat’s bad. Eat insert plants. These are the benefits. Avoid insert meat. And if you do, these are the pathologies, you know, cancer and all this stuff.

Joel Greene [00:33:15]:
It’s the same formula. They’re using the same point as swapping the foods. So what both of them have missed is that they’re both conflating the inherent health aspects of a food with the dose and duration of the food. They’re conflating the 2, which brings us to something I would say revolutionary, except it’s not. It’s just common sense. It’s that the health of a food is not determined solely by the health properties of a food. Oh. Oh.

Joel Greene [00:33:47]:
Wait. What? How can you this is blasphemous. Yeah. The health of a food is also equally determined by the dose and the duration of the dose. Oh. Such that too much of a healthy thing can be unhealthy. And and we’ve just conflated that in this age. So what you’ll hear on both sides of the equation is I hear this all the time.

Joel Greene [00:34:11]:
Oh, no. No. No. Those the spinach is bad. No. It’s bad. It’s it contains oxalates and, you know, insert the formula. You know, insert pathology if you but that’s a conflation.

Joel Greene [00:34:23]:
No. Actually, spinach is inherently healthy. The issue is the dose. Yeah. Of course. Too much spinach. Yes. You’re gonna get an overload of oxalates.

Joel Greene [00:34:32]:
Yes. That’s true. However, in moderate doses, you’re getting all the benefits, which include stimulating the nitrate producing bacteria in the mouth, the nitrate reducing bacteria, and protecting the endothelium. Oh, wait. You mean there’s benefits to spinach? Yeah. Yeah. There are. And you see this you see the reverse is also true.

Joel Greene [00:34:52]:
You see it like, oh, no. No. No. Meat meat drives colon cancer. No meat’s bad. You know? No. That’s a dose argument. No.

Joel Greene [00:34:59]:
No meat’s inherently healthy. It it is your best way to feed the intestines. It’s the best way to feed the upper gut. Not only that there’s all kinds of peptides in meat that are unique to meat. So meat meat is really, I would argue essential in the diet. Now you can get too much. And, also, very often, the other issue is that the food grade is conflated with the food, meaning you could find terrible grades of anything.

Nick Urban [00:35:26]:
To continue on the the dogma from either side, one of the things I hear in the low carb carnivore side often all the time in comments actually is that there are no such thing as essential carbohydrates. And, yes, there are essential fats. There are essential amino acids, but no essential carbs. Can you explain why looking at it through that lens is inadequate and what the how the body has to compensate and throw other systems out of balance if you just completely cut out and neglect what what you call it, one guild from the diet completely?

Joel Greene [00:35:59]:
Yeah. That’s that’s 20 years ago nutrition. I mean, that’s the I I I sat through a seminar in 2006 with, with Udo of Udo’s Oil who gave that argument, and, you know, he was carbs are not essential. You know, He was given that whole thing. And a real nice guy, really knowledgeable guy. But here’s the problem with that argument. We can reverse engineer the the mechanisms of real and lasting health. And top of the list is insulin function.

Joel Greene [00:36:26]:
Insulin must operate, efficiently. And when you break that down and you reverse engineer, well, what do you need to get that? You have to stimulate all the hormones involved. It’s not just insulin. It’s adapenectin. It’s glucagon. It’s, GLP, GIP, you know, adiponectin. So there there’s a family, but then it’s also the microbiome. It’s not just those hormones.

Joel Greene [00:36:48]:
So optimal insulin function rests on an optimized microbiome. And along with that is the gut immune axis. The gut immune axis is also essential for real and lasting health. So so if what you’re after is not a fad, is not some short term improvement, but but something true and real, then you have to keep the long term into account. And now we got if we reverse engineer, how are we gonna get there? 2 things show up. You have to have the bifidobacteria in the picture. Must have. It’s a must have mechanism because the fetal bacteria sort of acts as the central central gatekeeper in the gut immune access.

Joel Greene [00:37:31]:
Have to have that. How do you get it? Carbs. Carbs. The way to get like like, it provable. Long term carnivore diets will suppress the Bifidobacteria. For that reason alone that reason alone they they disqualify themselves from being the thing the thing that’s gonna give real and lasting help because you suppress Bifidobacteria. But the other thing too is optimal insulin function, and and the 2 work together. And so it’s it’s very complex, but, you know, through a number of mechanisms, through bile acid secretion and, you know, the the impact of the impact of the gut immune axis on x receptors in the liver.

Joel Greene [00:38:09]:
There’s a there’s a pathway which is, the farnesoid receptor and liver x receptors, and that pathway dovetails with stress hormones like FGF 15 and 19. It governs a lot of things in the liver, and it’s driven by ratios of things like bifidobacteria in the gut, which control bile acids. Optimal insulin function requires kind of this this picture in the microbiome. That’s true for just about all humans. Now you can you can make an isolated case. That’s not true for the. However, that’s not to say that other bacteria that we haven’t categorized aren’t picking up slack to perform the same thing. But, basically, long story short, if we’re gonna reverse engineer how to get real and lasting health, we have to we have to reverse engineer how to build optimal levels of the gut immune access, which means bifidobacteria, which means the best way to get that is through carbs.

Joel Greene [00:39:04]:
And so while you can make an old school case to say carbs are not essential, in an updated understanding of real and lasting health, you can make a very good case. Actually, they’re absolutely essential to feed the taxa that are essential in the gut. You can’t feed them otherwise. Not only that, optimal insulin function requires carbs. What you see over and over and over is people who eliminate carbs from the diet. Eventually, what happens is they get an improvement short term, but long term, they get insulin resistant, and their fasting insulin goes high.

Nick Urban [00:39:37]:
And there are arguments that it’s a transient change, and then once you reintroduce carbs, then it comes back into normal. And is that always the case?

Joel Greene [00:39:46]:
No. I just say that with numbering in the 100, maybe 1,000 now, anecdotal reports people have come to me who did low carb diets and now admitted them too long too much. And now they have diabetes. There’s there’s papers on this. I mean, like, don’t take my word for it.

Nick Urban [00:40:05]:
My point here isn’t necessarily to pick on any one dietary philosophy of going low carb or carnivore or whatever, but it’s the point that all of these, like, extreme diets, extreme being that they completely exclude certain food groups or worse, entire macronutrients. They all have their downsides. There are no biological free lunches here. And you could say the same thing about going and completely eliminating, say, vegetables or completely eliminating meat. But you’re also at the same time not advocating someone just go out and loads up on processed junk either. It’s not just eat ad libitum, whatever you want, whenever you want.

Joel Greene [00:40:42]:
No. I mean, if our goal is real and lasting health, then all we’re trying to do is reverse engineer what’s gonna get us there. In fact, I read a study just yesterday looking at which diets improve mitochondria function the most, and the best, the Mediterranean diet. Yeah. Because looking at keto diets, keto diets improve mitochondrial function in some aspects, but there were other aspects that were possibly detrimental. But the varied and balanced diet was the one that worked the best, and and that’s a that’s a counterpoint nowadays. It’s it’s it’s it’s strange to hear appealing to basic sense is this controversial thing. And don’t get me wrong.

Joel Greene [00:41:23]:
I think that the keto diet is a wonderful protocol. I mean, I think it could be lifesaving. I think the carnivore diet is a fantastic protocol. I I think it can really be useful. I don’t think that it’s the thing that’s going to achieve real and lasting health, but I think in the short term, it can be extremely useful.

Nick Urban [00:41:42]:
Absolutely. Especially if you have food sensitivities or intolerances, you can completely remove those food groups or foods and use that as an elimination diet, and then gradually reintroduce them when your body can handle them.

Joel Greene [00:41:55]:
Mhmm. Absolutely.

Nick Urban [00:41:57]:
Let’s talk about the components of real and lasting health. You’ve mentioned a few of them, but I think this is really important to focus on because a lot of peer reviewed science is coming and going. It’s saying one thing today and seemingly contradicting itself tomorrow. If you look at what’s out there with your scientist hat on, how do you distinguish what’s gonna be here to stay and what’s a fad?

Joel Greene [00:42:23]:
Confusion is the biggest problem in the age that we’re in. We have too much information. We have too many incentives to put out contrarian information. And the net is that everybody’s just confused out of their minds about what to think and what to believe. So in the new book, what I tried to do was create a framework by which the average person could get away from complete dependence on experts and return a little bit to sense, to just looking at things through the lens of sense. And and very often, it actually solves the problem. Like, when you look at when you just use sense, you know, sometimes you don’t need an expert to figure something out. You just need you just need sense.

Joel Greene [00:43:06]:
And when you look at what kinda makes sense, the first thing that makes a ton of sense is that nature, for the most part, doesn’t really set you up for continual abundance in nature. Like like, if you’re, you know, if you did a survival course, you’re not gonna go to the refrigerator whenever, you know, it’s time to to eat. You’re not. And and so there’s this thing that we’ve left out of the picture called scarcity. And scarcity actually turns out to be the defining factor of the human diet for all but the last 100 years. Scarcity was what defined the human diet, and scarcity is this really funny thing. Scarcity introduces variety into the diet. Scarcity forces variety into the diet, and that’s that’s an that’s an aspect of nature.

Joel Greene [00:43:58]:
So whenever we see a natural rhythm, it just makes sense to pay attention to it. It makes sense to to ponder it and think about it and go, are we missing this? And it turns out, yeah, we are. We’re missing scarcity. In fact, I can make an argument that that most modern diets are based on abundance. They’re they’re based on the notion that this this works great if you have a fridge. I mean, this works great if you have power and and you can keep keep all your stuff cool. It doesn’t work so great if I take away your fridge. You know? It doesn’t work at all, actually.

Joel Greene [00:44:29]:
And so when we look at, like, real and lasting health and what has to go into that, there’s to my mind, there’s there’s 4 really important things that you you you don’t have to be an expert to agree on. You just need sense. The the first is the cardiovascular system. Again, I’m not appealing to rocket science for this. I’m just I’m just appealing to basic sense that the job of the cardiovascular system is to do 2 things. It’s to get oxygen and glucose into every cell. And the way that we know that’s important is if you take any one of those things to 0, you’ll be dead in a minute. When you look at the the thing most likely to kill you, it’s a cardiovascular system.

Joel Greene [00:45:13]:
Like, what’s the number one cause of death globally? Stroke, heart attack, cardiovascular related issues. That’s what kills most people. So in our priority list, let’s put that one at the top. Let’s say that’s our number 1. And then, well, what goes wrong with that? And when you look at it with age and you reverse engineer it, there’s a there’s a few things that are conspicuous. But one of them is that that the, lining, what’s called the endothelium, is just degrading over time. It’s just getting essentially, you’re getting leaky gut, but in the vessels. So leaky vessels, it’s just deteriorating.

Joel Greene [00:45:49]:
That’s a big deal. It’s a really big deal. Promotes plaques, promotes arteriosclerosis, all kinds of stuff. Another thing that’s happening is the enzymes that line the vasculature, that regulate how glucose works, they get broken. These are called the NOx enzymes. The big word is n a d p a choxidase. They are free radical producing enzymes, and they go wonky. And then when that happens, there’s another mechanism called the glycocalyx.

Joel Greene [00:46:22]:
And this mechanism is a tension sensor, and what it does is it regulates kind of the permeability of the vascular junctions that breaks. So what happens is with age, all of these things break, and then what happens is things that were never a problem, for example, saturated fat, become a massive problem. And, you know, again, you don’t need to be super smart to get this. You just need to kind of think about it like, yeah, it seems to me that if the number one thing that’s gonna kill me is the cardiovascular system, I probably should, at the top of the list, orient my diet towards preventing that. And when we begin to inventory and reverse engineer what’s gonna do the best job of preventing that long term, a couple things show up. Top of the list are leafy green vegetables, the leafy greens. The same foods, many cases, that contain oxalates, the same foods that, you know, one tribe is telling us, no. Don’t eat those because, I love Ben Poklowski’s take on this.

Joel Greene [00:47:22]:
He calls it looking at the world through a straw. So you can you can make a case for anything by looking at the world through straw. If we say that the most important thing in in the body is oxalate accumulation, you can make a really good case. I could say, no, man, because kidney stones are bad. You’ve never had one. And if you get one, you don’t ever want one. It’s all from Oxalate Foods, bro. You know? Well, that’s not the most important thing.

Joel Greene [00:47:45]:
The most important thing is your cardiovascular system. Turns out, leafy greens play a really important role. They feed the bacteria in the mouth that make the enzymes that produce nitric oxide. And nitric oxide, there’s a there’s a funny thing about it that makes a a really good case for reverse engineering how to get more of it. Nitric oxide, the absence of it correlates to every disease. And then in combination, blueberries and berries, generally speaking, seem to suppress the breaking of those enzymes, the NOx enzymes. They seem to help it. They also do this really interesting thing that’s synergistic with leafy greens.

Joel Greene [00:48:26]:
So leafy greens increase nitric oxide total, but with age, it’s less bioavailable. So even if you’re making more, it doesn’t matter. Berries, particularly blueberries, seem to make it more bioavailable. So there’s this case in the diet for leafy greens and berries kinda together, not in massive amounts, not you know, they just just just that they probably should be in the diet. The other thing, though, it’s very interesting, both of those foods actually stimulate the gut immune access. They actually help us to have the right ratios of the bacteria that seem to impact insulin and everything else. So they make a really good case for being in the diet, but not too much. You know? In other words, what would we get in nature? We get we get adequate, but not excessive amounts of these things.

Joel Greene [00:49:11]:
They just have a place in the diet. And so we can keep going down this road and reverse engineering what should be in the diet for cardiovascular health. And meat makes a really good case that it should be in the diet for a number of reasons related to cardiovascular health. And and so what we’ll wind up with by doing this, by reverse engineering it, is a diet that looks diverse. It looks kinda balanced, and it looks really healthy. The final missing piece of the equation is just something that’s missing, and that’s the patterns, and that’s the sequences. And a case I make in the new book is that the sequences and the patterns are as important as the foods. We think health is just conferred by the food, but what we’ve left out is that the sequence and the patterns seem to play a role too.

Joel Greene [00:50:02]:
And in nature, there’s actually a sequence that’s missing. You can find it in nature. I call it nature’s meal plan. Let’s just just go do a survival course, and you’ll you’ll see that there’s a natural sequence. You you’re looking for dense satiating game. You’re looking for fish. You’re looking for meat. Along the way, you’re foraging and you’re going hungry.

Joel Greene [00:50:20]:
That’s the sequence. You know? And then what happens is when you get some dense, satiating food, you’re gonna pig out on it as much as you can. Right? But then you go back to being hungry, and you go back to foraging.

Nick Urban [00:50:30]:
Oh, absolutely. For those that for religious reasons or spiritual reasons, personal reasons, they can’t consume meat, do you have any recommendations on, like, substitutes or things they can do instead?

Joel Greene [00:50:44]:
You know, to the extent that you can get animal protein in the diet, it doesn’t necessarily have to be from bovine sources or hooved sources, things like that. But the the extent that you can get animal protein in the diet, it’s probably a really good idea to do that for a number of reasons, not just the protein, but the peptides and all the other things that are in it. If you absolutely can’t do that in certain cultures, I know, you know, they’re they’re much more averse to, to having animal proteins in the diet, then, you know, it gets a lot trickier to do. In my opinion, it’s just, it’s just harder to get the same benefits, the same rounded out kinda, you know, it you have to work a lot harder at it, I would say.

Nick Urban [00:51:22]:
Yeah. I mean, I guess if you can’t eat meat, hopefully, you can have some form of dairy or other animal products. And like you mentioned, dairy seems to play a central role in your work so far. I know that you mentioned using it as a preload before meals. And, also, I noticed a lot of your meals have dairy specifically. Can you talk about why dairy plays such an important role?

Joel Greene [00:51:46]:
The evolution of my thought with dairy began probably in the early nineties when met trucks came out and relied heavily on, milk proteins. And I got I got so peeled, like, the the most rip I’ve ever been in my life was in competitive track and field where I think I was probably I didn’t have it measured, but I I did have myself measured later, and I knew where I was, and I was much leaner in competitive tracks. I was probably about 2, 3% body fat. But when I did the metrics, I mean, I was I was lean. I was 5, 4, 5. I was lean. Really, really lean. And, that just kinda introduced me to, like, ah, milk proteins.

Joel Greene [00:52:20]:
Wow. There there there’s it got me down this road of looking at, like, what comes in what comes in dairy. And when you get into what comes in dairy, you can’t you can’t really you shouldn’t put it in a box because there’s so much stuff in dairy that is uniquely functional. There are the specialized carbohydrates that are in dairy, the HMOs, for example, uniquely functional. There are unique proteins in dairy, unique in dairy. I mean, there’s so much stuff in dairy. The reason dairy gets a bad rap has to do with the food grade of dairy, and primarily the reliance on Holsteins in the age that we’re in. And Holsteins have been, you know, bred to produce tons and tons of milk, but that’s not that’s not really how it should be.

Joel Greene [00:53:08]:
Like, one of the reasons they had to add vitamin d to milk is that they got the production up so high, the nutrient density went down. But when you look at milk from, you know, cows that have not been bred to produce tons of quantity, the quality goes to the roof. It it it ceases to be white. It’s kind of an orangey color to the milk, and it’s because that’s that’s milk in its natural state. It’s loaded with vitamin d. It’s loaded with all these nutrients. And so the issues with dairy have a lot to do with the food grade and with the production of it, and they also have a lot to do with the bacteria that most people no longer have in their guts to to break down dairy. And what I’ve seen time and again, and you mentioned this prior to the show, Time and again, I’ve seen people go through the immunity code, recolonize a gut, and all their dairy issues go away.

Joel Greene [00:54:01]:
And it’s just because they acquire the bacteria that had the genes to digest dairy that they didn’t have before. So so the issues with dairy basically keep us from understanding the benefit of dairy. There are there are so many benefits to it. It I mean, it’s really mind boggling. I’ve studied it for a number of years going north of 20 years. It’s one of your best tools for fat loss. It’s one of your best tools post fat loss. Dairy helps you during the fat loss process, increase fat oxidation.

Joel Greene [00:54:29]:
It helps you in the post fat loss phase prevent the weight regain. The peptides in dairy are numerous, and, you know, this is the age of peptides. We’re all into GLP 1. We’re all into there are peptides in dairy that haven’t even yet been harvested that do things like basically increase the efficiency of the renin angiotensin system, which improves insulin function. It improves cardiovascular function. I mean, it’s just it’s just loaded with nutrients. It’s amazing. And I’m talking bovine dairy.

Joel Greene [00:55:02]:
You know? Like, amazing. There’s a guy I know, Yemeni Mesa, who was the original Metrix poster boy, and he used to get real colostrum, the real thing, from a dairy farmer. He would drive up to Bakersfield every week to get some, and he he’s a guy who would know. He’s like, that stuff that stuff is as good as steroids. If you could get real colostrum, like, I’m talking the fresh stuff right off the cow, that stuff’s, like, builds muscle. Like, it’s it’s incredible. So there are peptides in dairy that promote muscle growth. There’s peptides in dairy that just do so many things.

Joel Greene [00:55:38]:
It helps us with sleep. I mean, it’s just it’s such a useful tool that the downside of dairy really has to do with production techniques and breeding, and you can mitigate most of that through recolonizing the gut and choosing the highest grade possible to get the benefits without the downside. And so I use it a lot, because it’s so useful.

Nick Urban [00:55:58]:
I wanna underscore something you said a second ago because it’s just that important. And if you are celiac, of course, this isn’t medical advice, but if you’re celiac, you’re gluten intolerant, you can’t handle certain foods or such as lactose and dairy, then even if your human genome doesn’t have that ability, you can manipulate your gut microbiome, and you can acquire that ability.

Joel Greene [00:56:23]:
Genetics has really messed up our thought process because you take a DNA test and you think that’s you. It’s a lesser truth hiding in the middle of a greater truth. The greater truth is that the you have 3 genomes. You have a micro mitochondria. You have your human genome, and at which, by the way, your human genome is different in every organ. It’s different in every tissue. So when you when you take a DNA test and it says, this is you, it’s not you. That’s you in the organ they tested.

Joel Greene [00:56:48]:
But the other thing is your microbiome. The, most of the horsepower for digestion is not in the human genome. It’s in the microbiome. And so you can acquire genes that work for you by acquiring the bacteria that have those genes. And it it should be more widely acknowledged. It really should because it’s it’s such an incredible thing when you see someone go through it. You know, they’ve had a lifetime gluten issue or a lifetime dairy issue, and they acquire the bacteria that have the genes for that, and all of a sudden this lifetime problem goes away. And you realize, like, there’s this power you have at your disposal, which is to increase certain taxa of bacteria and thereby increase the genetic horsepower at your disposal for digestion and diet.

Joel Greene [00:57:37]:
And it’s it’s such a cool thing to go through. I mean, I used to break out horribly from ice cream. I couldn’t have any dairy at all, and it doesn’t even faze me now. I could eat till I could drink straight up milk, and it doesn’t even faze me. I used to get horrible cystic acne if I had milk. Doesn’t even faze me now. Then it’s just I changed the gut.

Nick Urban [00:57:55]:
Seems superhuman once you experience it for yourself, I have too. I couldn’t tolerate dairy for years. I didn’t I figured out in my teenage years that it was the dairy in my diet that was plaguing me, giving me all the symptoms, like, the health symptoms that I didn’t want. I cut it out for 10 years or so, and then I recently reintroduced it 6 months ago, 9 months ago. And I, lo and behold, could handle it again. So it it sounds impossible, but once you experience it, it’s pretty incredible. Couple more questions for you. You chose to focus on food, which I found surprising initially when you wrote your book, The Way after the immune code, which was like a shotgun covered everything, then you focused specifically on food.

Nick Urban [00:58:36]:
Why was that?

Joel Greene [00:58:38]:
Because that’s the thing people are most confused about. If you go down this path of biohacking, you’re going to wind up overloaded. You’re gonna wind up with, you know, umpteen gadgets, umpteen protocols. I mean, it’s now become like a meme you’re finding gag reels on YouTube making fun of biohackers like you know with you know safety pins on their eyebrows and all kinds of stuff. There’s no just there’s only the original reason I wrote The Immunity Code was I was in a working environment, and I’d been doing fitness for 30 years as a consumer, and I got fat and it didn’t work. And I needed you know, it really brought me back to, like, what would be the essential things if I didn’t have time? And that’s the thing is over your life, the one there’s only one thing there’s only one thing you’re guaranteed to do health wise every single day, and that’s eat. You’re gonna eat every day. And so eating is a health input, and therefore, it’s the foundational health input.

Joel Greene [00:59:35]:
We’ve gotten away from that. We’ve gotten away from the fact that food is the foundation of everything else. You know? Like, we’re all into running around with sunglasses on and, you know, mouth pain. I started a lot of that stuff. You know? A lot of popularized some of it to some degree, I’d like to think. But the really, the foundation is food. It it it always will be and always has been. And so understanding and eliminating all the confusion around food and understanding the basics about food that diversity and balance in the diet is gonna be your friend long term and just everything to go with that, you know, the most important things.

Joel Greene [01:00:08]:
It’s it’s the most important thing, and it’s the thing that, we’re most confused about.

Nick Urban [01:00:12]:
Absolutely. Well, that’s a good place to wrap this one up. If people want to connect with you, to check out your website, to grab any of your books, how do they go about that?

Joel Greene [01:00:22]:
Yeah. So go to veep nutrition.com. It’s also under you can type in vic.health, theic.healthorveepnutrition.com. And just click on at the top of the menu, you’ll see or you can come to my Instagram. I have a ton of free content I’ve built over the years, and just click on my free content section. There’s tons of stuff there. And that’s real Joel Green, and that’s the same handle for Twitter and same handle for TikTok.

Nick Urban [01:00:53]:
And I highly recommend your Instagram as well. Lots of good nuggets there to see video demonstrations and interesting captions about how it all works together. I’ll put a link to that and everything we’ve discussed so far in the show notes of this episode. Joel, any final words you’d like to leave listeners with?

Joel Greene [01:01:10]:
I think that just learn to learn to rely more on your own sense, return to sense, return to ancient wisdom, return to sense, and allow because we’re in an age where a lot of nonsense is dressed up as sense and just begin to rely as as much on sense as you do expertise.

Nick Urban [01:01:25]:
Perfect. Well, Joel, thank you so much for joining the podcast. It’s been a pleasure hosting you today. Thank you for tuning in to this episode. Thought provoking guests. As always, you can find the show notes for this one at mindbodypeak.com /, and then the number of the episode. There, you can also chat with other peak performers or connect with me directly. The information depicted in this podcast is for information purposes only.

Nick Urban [01:02:07]:
Please consult your primary health care professional before making any lifestyle changes.