“Kambo” Animal Medicine: A Neurobiologist’s Key Tool for Healing & Transforming

  |   EP136   |   76 mins.

caitlin thompson

On this episode of Mind Body Peak Performance, our host, Nick Urban, and Caitlin Thompson, neurobiologist and pioneer in human studies on Kambo, delve into the transformative effects of this unique Amazonian medicine.

Tune in to explore Kambo’s physiological and long-term benefits, differentiation from classic psychedelics, the integration process, safe administration, and the potential for a paradigm shift in medical research.

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Episode Highlights

Kambo is a medicine of transformation and catalyzation and what that means is it often can be disruptive Click To TweetAntimicrobial peptides within Kambo can be powerful against infection Click To TweetTrauma doesn't just disappear and Kambo can act as a tool to help us address them Click To Tweet

About Caitlin Thompson

Caitlin Thompson is a seasoned international Kambo practitioner having served over 1,300 clients with a specialty in Lyme disease, autoimmune conditions and other chronic illnesses. Caitlin came to her specialty through conquering her own personal battle with Lyme disease and chronic illness symptoms. She is proudly in remission with consistent vibrant health.

Caitlin is formally educated as a neurobiologist and is a research associate at UCSD School of Medicine. She operates as an independent scientific researcher with her previous studies focusing on psychedelics and their potential for treating autoimmune conditions and the prebiotic effects of herbs on the human microbiome. She is currently pioneering some of the first human studies on Kambo.

Caitlin has been featured in over 80+ podcasts, interviews, conferences, speaking engagements, and even international television appearances as a leading Kambo expert. Her set of skills makes her uniquely qualified to integrate the art and magic of Kambo with the scientific world.

Top Things You’ll Learn From Caitlin Thompson

  • Her background as a neurobiologist and Kambo practitioner
    • Overview of Kambo as a non-psychedelic animal medicine
    • The traditional indigenous use of Kambo
    • Comparison of Kambo to classic psychedelics
  • Benefits and physiological effects of Kambo
    • The effects on neurotransmitter expression and dopamine activity
    • Psychological effects, trauma recognition, and addressing chronic illnesses
    • What experiences are induced by Kambo
  • Peptides commonly derived in Kambo
    • Caitlin’s expertise in peptides and her research on the compounds found in Kambo
    • The 27+ forms of peptides found in the process
    • The antimicrobial and potential medicinal properties of these peptides
    • Challenges with the limited scientific research on complex substances
    • Acknowledgment of the slow progress when it comes to research
  • Administration and safety concerns
    • The ritualistic application method involving superficial burns and frog secretion
    • The distinction between Kambo and traditional psychedelics when it comes to safety
    • The importance of safe administration and the risks associated with unqualified practitioners
    • Resources for safe Kambo practice
  • What integration is in the sense of psychedelics
    • The importance of preparing with intention and clarity before a session
    • The role of the participant in integrating the experiences
    • Physical, emotional, and spiritual benefits and transformations from the experience
    • Creating meaningful contexts and rituals into one’s lifestyle
    • The potential long-term benefits of Kambo
  • Where you find skilled Kambo practitioners
    • The importance of working with an experienced practitioner
    • Why first-timers should be administered as test point
    • What you can expect in the start-to-finish experience

Resources Mentioned

  • Program: Medicine Frog Kambo Courses
  • Resource: Kambo Finder
  • Book: Tibetan Book of the Dead
  • Teacher: Vittorio Erspamer

Episode Transcript

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Nick Urban [00:00:05]:

This day and age, you’ve certainly heard of plant medicines. You might have some opinions whether they’re good, bad, useful, dangerous, but Have you heard of animal medicines? Well, today, we’re discussing a topic known as Kambo. This is a non psychedelic animal medicine that’s often used to provoke a wide variety of healing responses. Hi. I’m Nick Ervin, host of the Mindbody Peak Performance podcast. And today, we’re discussing, as I mentioned, Kambo. In this episode, you’ll learn an overview of what it is, the safety of it, how to evaluate Kambo practitioners, how this medicine compares and contrasts to some of the classic psychedelics. The research that our guest this week is currently engaging in, and everything else you should know before considering this a potential tool in your toolbox.

Nick Urban [00:01:07]:

We went particularly deep around the peptides and active ingredients that are most likely found within this animal medicine, and that is also a current frontier of Kambo research. Our guest this week is Caitlin Thompson. She’s a seasoned international Kambo practitioner, having served over 1300 clients with a specialty in Lyme disease, autoimmune conditions, and other chronic illnesses. Later in the episode, you’ll learn how she got involved with Kambo, but she is a formally educated neurobiologist and a research associate at UCSD School of Medicine. She operates as an independent scientific researcher with her previous studies focusing on psychedelics and their potential for treating autoimmune conditions and the prebiotic effect of herbs on the human microbiome. As we discussed, she is also currently pioneering some of the first human studies on Kambo. And although this will be the 1st human study, Kambo has been used by different tribes regularly for a very long time. You can find all the resources and links to the things we discuss at mind body peak.com/ the number 136.

Nick Urban [00:02:25]:

She also mentioned a couple resources that she’s created to help facilitate safe Kambo use, and those are Kambosphecialist.com, medicinefrogKambo.comandKambofinder.com, Kambo spelled k a m b o. You can find her on Instagram at medicine frog Kambo and at Kambo finder. Currently, I have no sponsors powering this podcast, So if you find this information helpful, I would greatly appreciate you sharing it with a friend or someone you think could benefit from this information. Or if you feel so inclined, scroll down to the bottom of where you’re listening this, give it a thumbs up, leave a rating and review because that’s how I find innovative, thought provoking guests like Caitlin, and how this show gets found. Alright. Ladies and gentlemen, sit back, relax, and enjoy this conversation with Caitlin Thompson. Caitlin Thompson, welcome to Mindbody Peak Performance.

Caitlin Thompson [00:03:24]:

Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here and have this conversation with you.

Nick Urban [00:03:29]:

Me too. And thank you for waking up at the crack of dawn. It is like 7 AM ish your time over there, and it is 5 PM for me, so you are putting 1 up for the team. So thank you for that. And let’s start out today with Something interesting about Kambo or your line of work that will help people understand why this is something they should pay attention to.

Caitlin Thompson [00:03:52]:

There’s a saying that I like to share that the difference between medicine and poison is dosage. And, I think the concept of Kambo as a frog poison, it invites A lot of deeper exploration into really the definition of toxicity versus medicine, it allows us to kind of see that the line between poison and medicine is Not so clear, and and it’s quite blurry, and and everything is on a spectrum, so balance is really the key with Every compound that we utilize for our well-being or or not well-being.

Nick Urban [00:04:37]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, if you look at any of the major drugs that are used, Caffeine, nicotine. There’s, like you got on a list. There’s a lethal dose of all those. And for a lot of them, it’s not that much Higher than the therapeutic dose. Like, caffeine, you take 10 times the recommended dose. You’re starting to push the limits and same with nicotine and alcohol, like, definitely a neurotoxin.

Nick Urban [00:04:56]:

So You’re right. There is certain thing to that. It’s a lot more than just the blanket statement of Kambo being a neurotoxin, but we haven’t even introduced what that is. We’ll do that in 2nd. But let’s warm up today with the unusual or nonnegotiable things you’ve done for your health, your performance, and your bioharmony.

Caitlin Thompson [00:05:16]:

Yeah. I I make my health my first priority. I’ll probably talk more about my story later, but As someone who has had chronic illness in the past and has some of those tendencies still for dysfunction, exercise, Good sleep and good food are the nonnegotiables for me to to thrive. And it’s funny. Full of supplements, maybe.

Nick Urban [00:05:42]:

Do you have anything in particular, any supplements you are a big fan of?

Caitlin Thompson [00:05:46]:

You know, right now, I’m really enjoying experimenting with all sorts of strange Peptides that I’ve been injecting, not necessarily endorsing that, but, man, they are incredible and fascinating.

Nick Urban [00:05:59]:

Mhmm. And I think there is some relation between Kambo and peptides also, so we can touch

Caitlin Thompson [00:06:05]:

on that in a minute. But, yeah, let’s dive in. What is Kambo and How did you get involved with it? Yeah. So kambo is a traditional indigenous Amazonian medicine That was originally used for a number of reasons, but primarily as like a hunting aid Where it would sharpen their senses and their visual acuity, improve their endurance, their stamina, And their resilience, much like an adaptogenic, substance, and they would also you know, they it depends kind of, I guess, on which Tribe you’re referring to, but the Matzays, who are primarily who I’m connected to, they would also use it before going into, like, hunts or raids Because, you know, there is some violence that has happened in the past of human history and and really all all, all societies, but, they also use it for things like infections or snake bites or malaria and, something called panama, which is basically equivalent to like a dark cloud of bad luck or Stagnation or or or funk. I kind of, think it’s like an equivalent to systemic Inflammation, and it comes from the skin secretion of a very specific type of tree frog. Now you’re like, woah. That’s that’s weird. So, phylum medusa bicolor is the species, and this frog secretes This substance that is full of bioactive peptides, as a defense mechanism from predators, But also microbes.

Caitlin Thompson [00:07:57]:

There are there is some really potent antimicrobial activity to the secretion, And, yeah, it’s full of these really potent and really fascinating peptides, which we’ll sure talk about more in a bit, And so the medicine is applied through superficial burns made on the skin, usually the arm, but, you know, you can definitely apply to other areas of the Body, and within minutes, the secretion has entered the body. There’s some debate about the mechanism of that, but it seems to get into the bloodstream and likely the lymphatic system as well, And very quickly induces a whole host of physiological experiences that are generally perceived as Not very pleasant, and and usually this process is accompanied by vomiting, increased heart rate, Heat flushing, facial swelling, nausea, sweating, just general, like, malaise and feeling Sick. I mean, it feels like very intense food poisoning concentrated into, like, a 20, 30 minute period, so it’s definitely not a recreational or fun activity unless you’re a bit sadistic, but It’s about 30 minutes or so of feeling quite ill, so you might wonder, like, why the heck would anyone ever do this? There are incredible physical, emotional, and spiritual benefits that people Gather from these experiences, and it really is a very holistic medicine because it’s The the real bioactivity of the peptides seems to really interface with, like, the physiological mechanisms that can help Facilitate these deeper changes or shifts in the psyche and in the spiritual body depending on kind of, You know, what your beliefs are. So it really is a deeply fascinating experience and medicine, And one thing that’s worth noting, it is it is not a psychedelic medicine, it is not a hallucinogenic substance, and oftentimes people will confuse Kambo with Something called BUFO or 5 Me ODMT, which is derived from a toad, and that is very psychedelic, but cambo comes from a frog, So there is a distinction, and it really is quite unique, and it’s hard to describe the experience to someone Who has never gone through it because there’s there’s not much that you can compare it to, really.

Nick Urban [00:10:41]:

Yeah. I was gonna say, by the way you were describing it, I’m not sure that you’re selling the physical experience all that well. It doesn’t sound very pleasant.

Caitlin Thompson [00:10:49]:

It’s not. You don’t do it necessarily to enjoy the process. It is the gifts that come afterwards. That’s where the magic happens. It’s the days, weeks, and months After where you notice changes, you notice shifts that are happening, and you notice a lightness. Now that doesn’t mean that you can’t have these profound lessons that happen acutely in the experience, but that takes a little bit more Participation and someone who already has cultivated an ability to create meaning in ritual, and and consciously navigate and experience, but if you’re kind of passive and and waiting for it to, like, fix you or or do something for you or show you something, you might be disappointed and, sitting there waiting for your your, you know, Ayahuasca download or whatever that you think that you’re entitled to.

Nick Urban [00:11:45]:

So what are some of the experiences people have in the days, weeks, or even months after that makes it so that they feel it was a good use Of their time, energy, and it was worth going through the 30 minutes ish of, like, intense I won’t say suffering, but discomfort.

Caitlin Thompson [00:12:00]:

Yeah. I mean, first, I wanna say there’s a variety of ways it can unwind for people, so there’s no right or wrong way, but I would say that Campbell is a medicine of transformation and and catalyzation, and what that means is it often can be disruptive, which is kinda why we do it. Right? It’s when we’re stuck, when we’re in a groove that’s not serving us, It takes us and shakes us like a snow globe, very similar to psychedelics in that way, and helps us kind of Reemerge with some space and some perspective, and perhaps things like neuroplasticity or neurogenesis, we don’t really know yet, no one’s Investigated that, but, you know, on a physical level, usually, depending on the health of the person and and if they’re experiencing something like the Herxheimer effect, You know, it really depends, but, usually, within some time after the session, people will have a sense of, like, mental clarity and of, emotional balance and and resilience and centeredness, of groundedness, of well-being, And they just feel like they have more capacity to be neutral when dealing with things like conflicts or challenge. A lot of times people will find the courage to do the things that they know that they’ve needed to do for a while But have been avoidants of. So maybe that’s, transitioning out of a relationship. Maybe that’s quitting a job Or or making a decision to, like, start a new chapter of your life. So in that way, it can sometimes, I say, Bulldoze your cottage to help you build your castle, which it can be that can be a bit dramatic sometimes. Sometimes people are super disoriented.

Caitlin Thompson [00:13:48]:

Sometimes, like, everything just kind of explodes into pieces, and then they’re like, oh, I have to rebuild my life, so that’s on the extreme end of things, Psychologically speaking, but also people physically will have like enhanced resilience and endurance, reductions in pain, reductions in in various types of symptoms depending on if they have an ailment or what that ailment is. You know, I’ve had people who couldn’t have a bowel movement by their by themselves for years suddenly have a natural normal bowel movement. So I have really seen some, like, incredible things that happen instantly, or, you know, people will come With the intention of really addressing a physical issue, and and then, of course, I invite in, like, deeper meaning. I’m like, Okay. Cool. Yes. You have Epstein Barr virus and you have fatigue and all this stuff, but, you know, let’s ask the questions of, like, what compromised you that made you Susceptible to an opportunistic organism and and immune compromised. And then I invite in this, like, deeper reflection on More of like the psychospiritual or psychosomatic, components of what set someone up for a physical illness to manifest, and they’ll do the session, and then they’ll go home and, like, journal about a traumatic event they didn’t really think about until the session happened and they they shared it with me or, it just came kinda to the forefront of their mind again, and then they go into, like, remission for 5 years From 2 sessions.

Caitlin Thompson [00:15:30]:

That that is a true story that happened to me with with an Epstein Barr case. So, This stuff never gets boring. It is so amazingly potent for a lot of people, And it’s super weird, and it’s always different, and it has just kept me thoroughly entertained for, you know, a good number of years now.

Nick Urban [00:15:53]:

Yeah. So it sounds like it really helps move stuckness, whether it’s physical in the bowels or in life, Just across the board and then also on the other planes, like the mental and the spiritual planes also.

Caitlin Thompson [00:16:04]:

Yeah. Totally. It just blasts stagnation. And And on a physiological level too, you know, there’s there’s potent antimicrobial effects, there’s immunogenic or immune boosting effects, As well as immune modulating effects, which is important. There’s changes in, likely changes in, like, neurotransmitter Septer expression and increasing of, like, dopamine activity. There’s changes to the HPA axis into the vagal nerve tone.

Nick Urban [00:16:32]:

Mhmm. So if there’s less research on cambo and humans, then why would you choose this over something that’s usually more Pleasant, say, like, one of the classic psychedelics that are now starting to be researched more often because you chose this on your own journey.

Caitlin Thompson [00:16:47]:

Yeah. I mean, trust me, I chose plenty of psychedelics too, And and they’re amazing tools, but they’re different tools. And honestly, I I have this funny memory. I was presenting at a conference at CLA years ago on psychedelics as a novel approach for autoimmunity, and that was my my prior research was in that. And at the end of the talk, I just talked for an hour about how amazing psychedelics can be for chronic illness and autoimmunity, And someone comes up to the q and a, and they’re like, yeah. Yeah. But what about cambo? You know, if you had to choose between doing, like, Ayahuasca or cambo, which one would you do? And I was like, Kambo, a 100%, mic drop, and everyone’s like, Woah. And the truth is I think that cambo is way more effective, For, you know, bang for your buck, for some of these more physical manifestations in disease.

Caitlin Thompson [00:17:47]:

And the reason is is that, 1, 1, the peptides are just, amazingly potent and effective, but, 2, It’s a much more somatic experience, and I find that a lot of people that have chronic illness, they they also have a lot of trauma, and they also have a lot of disassociation. And in a way, our chronic illness developing is, like, our body screaming at us to, like, hear it, to pay attention to it, to Feel it. It’s like, hey. You’re not you’re not feeling me, so I’m gonna, like, turn up the volume. And, Kambo, There’s no escaping it. It brings you into your body, whereas psychedelics can kinda pull you out and then you can hang out in la la land for a bit. And I do think psychedelics are also valuable for these types of illnesses and and psychosomatic things, but, sometimes people can bypass by kind of continuing to disassociate and hang out in, you know, outer space, and There’s no way of escaping that with Kambo.

Nick Urban [00:18:51]:

That’s a huge one. And especially even though the people who don’t necessarily think they have a capital t trauma, they weren’t in a war, They didn’t have someone die right next to them. We all have different forms of trauma, and it doesn’t have to be a big trauma that Still imprints and nestles in our body somewhere, lodges in our body. And I could see how this would be very helpful as another tool in the toolbox to help with Right. Recognize some of those traumas and then work through them because they don’t disappear. They remain until they’re addressed. So you’ve already alluded to peptides several times, and there are certainly some kind of peptides and peptide like effects coming from Kambo. I know there’s a bunch of peptides out there.

Nick Urban [00:19:34]:

We’ve talked about several other ones on the show previously, especially the antimicrobials. I’ve used LL 37 and t a one and a bunch of stuff for immunity previously. I traveled with it sometimes in case of emergency, basically. But what are some of the peptides do you know within Kambo or, like, how is that working?

Caitlin Thompson [00:19:53]:

Yeah. So, There’s likely more that will emerge as you know, once more investigation happens, but from my experience Combing through the literature and then publishing what I think is the most up to date comprehensive peptide literature review of CAMBO. There’s about 27 peptides that I’ve identified from phylum medusa bicolor. There’s a number of other frogs that in that phylumiducid family that also have really interesting peptides, and Sometimes I think people lump them together, not realizing that, some are distinct in other species, but, yeah, there’s Probably around 27 or so different analogs, and within that, there’s 8 main peptide families, like categories, that they’re fitting into. Some of them are opioid peptides, like the Daltorphins and the, daromorphins, And they’re very potent opioid activity and also effects on, like, vagal nerve tone. They’re being explored for, like, being interventions for, like, ischemic mitigating ischemic damage in stroke or heart attack Because as I recently learned, opioids in general are, like, one of the most effective ways of reducing glutamate Excitotoxicity, which is the mechanism of ischemic damage. There’s also a lot of cardiovascular Peptides, so like, thylomeducine and, phylogenin, which influence, the tachykinin and bradykinin systems, which Have a lot of implications that we still don’t understand completely, but definitely, effects on vasodilation, perhaps Permobility of the vasculature. There is this rumor that has become adopted as gospel, unfortunately, that these, peptides Can induce permeability of the blood brain barrier.

Caitlin Thompson [00:21:53]:

We don’t actually know that for sure. No one’s really I’ve never found any publications on that. The the original scientist who kind of categorized these peptides, Victoria Espramer, he did allude to that, so I don’t know if he kinda did some, like, off the Off the, cusp, like, investigation and then just didn’t publish it or if it was just speculation, but, you know, that’s like a big, implication of, like, oh, maybe there’s opening of the blood brain barrier and perhaps facilitation of some of the other peptides straight into the nervous system, and there’s also a lot of gastric, juice secretion, smooth muscle contact contraction, gallbladder contraction, Things like that that are also induced by some of the peptides. Let’s see what else. And then there’s, like, the antimicrobial peptides, The dermaceptins, which are extremely fascinating, and there’s to my knowledge, there’s about 12 different analogs of that from phylum medusa bicolor, And they just decimate pathogens on contact, and very selectively so, so they don’t seem to have any cytotoxicity towards Mammalian cells or or animal cells, and they’re not sure entirely why, but it could have something to do with The presence of cholesterol in the phospholipid bilayer of, the cell membrane of animal cells, which is obviously different than single celled organisms, And so it seems to, like, bind to bacteria, fungi, viruses, protozoa, all sorts of these kind of more simple organisms, and somehow, like, cause the membrane to just completely collapse on itself. There’s some sort of like electrical it changes like the electrical gradient, which then just decimates the whole organism, So there’s there’s no room for, like, resistance to develop, which is a huge problem with antibiotics. Right? And so it is important that we develop Novel ways of fighting infectious organisms, and I do think antimicrobial peptides could be one of those developments. So that that’s a really cool fascinating, aspect of kembo, and there’s also anti cancerous properties from those same peptides.

Caitlin Thompson [00:24:16]:

You know, some of them, act on, like, the HPA axis and change, some of the signaling with, like, Beta endorphins and glucocorticoids and adrenocorticotropin releasing hormone. Yeah. So there’s all these behavioral changes that you see in rats, Anti addictive properties, increases of social behavior, decreases of locomotion, and all sorts of really fascinating things, but I will state that a lot of this research, one, isn’t being done in humans, it’s been done in In vitro, like petri dish, or in rats or guinea pigs or even dogs, and it is often 1 single peptide that they’re investigating and they’re likely injecting it, and that is simply not the same as a human being with a Spiritual intention in a ceremonial ritual, being burned and having a multitude of peptides Go into the system and having a vomiting experience, like, that’s just people people like to act like there’s so much science on Campbell, but there’s There’s not. There’s and even the peptides themselves, there’s really not a lot. There’s there’s basic mechanisms have been figured out, but that was done in, like, The nineties and eighties, and there hasn’t been much done since. There’s been some analogs Created and studied and and even patented and and turned into drugs, but as far as the naturally occurring peptides themselves, There’s been very little investigation, and part of that could just be the incentive to investigate something that’s Not patentable and and, eligible for drug development is not that interesting, you know, if it’s gonna cost $2,000,000,000 or whatever to push through drug development.

Nick Urban [00:26:12]:

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it’s kind of like with supplements that are isolates versus the full Spectrum or like food bay food derived where it’s like there’s a synergy, like a bunch of different ingredients work together to exert better effects, oftentimes fewer side effects. If you just take one thing, you isolate it. Say you isolate curcumin out of the turmeric plant, you’re getting very targeted effects, but you’re also changing the profile drastically. And we don’t know. Like, it tends like, the actual plant the whole Like, system tends to work better when you don’t do that. And so it’s sad to hear that they’re just testing individual peptides instead of like the whole combination.

Caitlin Thompson [00:26:52]:

Yeah. And even then, that was, you know, decades ago, and there’s not really much happening Now in the biochemical exploration, and it’s something I I keep trying to push for, but I’m an independent scientist, and so The resources and access to things that I have are, you know, really reliant on other institutions To make moves forward, so, yeah, trust me, I’m I’m so eager to explore so many other Facets of of this medicine, but, you know, it moves at science speed, which is turtle slow.

Nick Urban [00:27:29]:

Yeah. Well, the current system, the the current scientific system tends to be really good at taking one single thing, isolating one thing, One variable, changing that, manipulating that, and seeing how that affects something. But the sad part is that’s rarely how biology or the rest of, like, The natural world works.

Caitlin Thompson [00:27:50]:

Yeah. And that’s a big challenge when you’re trying to study something like this. It’s it’s so Complex, and it doesn’t really fit into, like, the neat clean model of modern research and medical technology, and, I mean, I would love to see a paradigm shift happen in the medical field where we can find a way of effectively studying these Multi component and complex substances like plants, like frog secretion or whole foods or whatever.

Nick Urban [00:28:20]:

We’re we’re making our way there. So I’m impressed. How did you amass all this knowledge about it if there isn’t that much research? And you said not that much Human research and that’s, of course, like, in peptides in general. I’ve been looking around at a lot of the top ones and you’d be surprised how few papers there are in healthy humans. So I’d imagine that you’re looking at Kambo as a whole. There’s gonna be a very scarce amount of total research, and even less in humans.

Caitlin Thompson [00:28:49]:

Yeah. Well, it’s really easy to become an expert at, a field that is so small. Like, you know, I’ve I’ve read pretty much most of the papers that are around Kambo and its peptides, because there’s not that many of them, so that’s how I know all this stuff, and there is some research on, like, the the mechanistic Parts, you know, the biochemistry, but there’s very little human research. Like, the only human study That I’m aware of with those peptides, and perhaps there’s more, is they did a study with Dairmorfin, which is one of the opioid peptides for post operative pain management, and it outperformed morphine In all of the areas, in pain efficacy, in need needs for more medication, In, like, patient outcome. Like like, it just completely blew it out of the water, and then no more studies, Which, you know, doesn’t surprise me. You do not wanna step on the toes of a of an opioid producing drug company. But I’m like, okay. And then I think there’s been some exploration in cerulean, Which it’s hard to know if if there’s Filoceruelan or or cerulan or a mix of both because they’re perhaps Indistinguishable on, like, assays and stuff, so it’s hard to really tell what you’re what you’re actually encountering in the secretion, but, there’s been some some looks at cerulan as an antipsychotic in schizophrenics, especially when combined with other atypical antipsychotic drugs.

Caitlin Thompson [00:30:34]:

Drugs. But, yeah, it’s like it’s like a desert, so you could throw a rock anywhere in this field And you’ll be landing on something novel, and I really saw that, like, dude, we gotta, like, start studying this in humans in the way that Humans are taking it. Humans aren’t injecting 1 peptide at a time with this stuff, and so, Luckily, I I had the support to move forward with really, like, creating the first Human study on Kambo, and I’m we’re just about wrapped up with the enrollment. So if there’s anyone listening, I need 2 more subjects. I’m I’m over it. I wanna, like, move on with the data collection and analysis. But, yeah, I think it is the 1st prospective human study with looking at cambo in a ritualistic context, And, you know, it’s a simple study. You have to start somewhere, you know, but it’s it’s a psychometric outcome investigation, so It involves surveys, you know, about mood and mindfulness and emotional well-being and pain and fatigue and things like that.

Caitlin Thompson [00:31:47]:

In particular, we’ve been interested in looking at people with chronic illness, especially Lyme disease or other autoimmune conditions. So, yeah, so far, we have some preliminary results which are really cool, and probably the most surprising thing that we’re seeing so far is that There has been a substantial and sustained reduction in depression symptoms, So it just goes like, whoop, like, immediately after the doing 3 sessions within a 30 days. That’s, like, the general protocol window, and people’s depression scores are just like dropping. And then 3 months later, when we follow-up with the same scales, Not only have their depression scores stayed low, they actually continue to drop slightly. So That’s really, yeah, really fascinating and and wasn’t really kind of part of my hypothesis, but I I guess I didn’t have a hypothesis. I was just kind of exploring. And then another thing that’s kind of emerging, which really aligns with my my experience as a practitioner, is that Having, more time in between sessions seems to be associated with better outcomes, And that makes sense because there’s there’s more time to integrate and there’s less brutality. You know, some people are doing 3 days in a row, And then other people are spacing them out, like, 3 weeks or, you know, like, sorry, a week in between, and we are seeing some data that suggests that, like, You’ll get better results if you allow some space and time to rest and integrate in between, which has always been part of my philosophy, Especially working with so many people with sensitive health.

Caitlin Thompson [00:33:37]:

So I’m really excited about that project and, you know, we’re like in You’re we’re at the end of year 2 with it, so I’m really hoping by the end of next year, we’ll have the results out and Published and readable for the public.

Nick Urban [00:33:51]:

Very cool. You said a word a second ago that I wanna unpack a bit because I’m sure it’s the it’s 2023 and people have heard the word integration before. Can you define what that is and why it’s so important? I’ve heard some people say that integration is everything and other and like Emphasizing that this is the important part of any of these types of medicines in this work.

Caitlin Thompson [00:34:12]:

Yeah. I mean, it’s a hot topic lately, especially in the psychedelic world. Right? I mean, what if you think about what the word integration actually means descriptively, It’s it’s when you’re able to weave, when when something is able to become a part of something else, Right, in a cohesive way. And it’s really when you’re able to weave in an experience or a lesson Or a release or shift or whatever you wanna call it. When you’re able to incorporate that Into your version of yourself and your your life and your lifestyle and your habits And the way you move through the world, that’s what integration is, and that’s why it’s so important. Because think about If you have this profound experience on Ayahuasca or DMT or or Kambo or whatever, But you don’t integrate it into a new version of who you are. Did you change? Did Was there actually an upgrade to your software? Right? And if not, well, then what was the point? Was it just a cool and interesting experience? That’s fine, and and there’s nothing wrong with that. But, ideally, we can get more from these experiences than just, oh, that was weird, and I don’t need to do that again.

Caitlin Thompson [00:35:38]:

You know, because Especially something as unpleasant as cambo. Like, you you better have a reason to do that Like, you better get something out of it, And that is largely up to the person and the practitioner to some extent. You know, it’s it’s our job as a practitioner to guide people into Being able to have the tools and the context to create meaning from their experience, but It really is up to the participant, and that is also why ritual is so important and ceremony element is important even though it’s not traditional. In the jungle, they don’t do any ceremony. You just sit on a log, and they just laugh at you while you puke all over yourself, And it’s very casual there, and so that is a Western adaptation is is adding the element of, like, this neo spiritual container, Which I actually think is amazing, and I think it’s it is an innovative way of working with this medicine where we then Can actually get more benefit from it, so I’m all for it. I’m I’m not a dogmatic, traditionalist at all. The only dogma I subscribe to is Do no harm. That’s the only thing I think we all need to be united on is let’s not hurt people.

Caitlin Thompson [00:36:51]:

It’s ultimately up to you what your experience means, and, You know, like I said, a lot of the gifts of cambo are the days, weeks, and months after the experience when You notice you’re relating to yourself, to your life, to your loved ones differently, and Kambo is there to support you and giving you the courage to then enact changes. But if you don’t Change if you don’t integrate these thoughts and ideas and perspectives About how you can make your life better, it won’t matter.

Nick Urban [00:37:33]:

So doing the work itself, though, that I mean, you mentioned the benefits Accrue over time. They take some time like days, weeks, months to really present themselves. And I’m assuming carving out some time to reflect And to process everything that’s happening whether it’s on a daily basis or a weekly basis, just having that time set aside, maybe even journaling beforehand and after and Comparing, contrasting the experience and personality shifts you’re noticing, relational shifts you’re noticing. Like, what is the actual practice of integrating?

Caitlin Thompson [00:38:06]:

Yeah. I mean, that’s gonna be different for each person, and, of course, integration coaches, I’m sure, will have their own opinions on that. But, Yeah. There’s a number of tools. Journaling can be one of them. Talking with a therapist can be one of them or or an integration coach, or spending time outside in nature alone, going camping by yourself could be an integration, or just laying in bed and staring at the wall, Playing music, like, whatever does it for you. Personally, I I created like a intention and integration workbook, And if anybody wants to use it, it’s free on my website, on medicinefrogKambo.com. And so I have some exercises that People can fill out and and go through prior to their session, which I would say that preparation and intention is As important for integration as the post ceremony stuff because it it helps you have context when you go into the ceremony, Which then you’re not scrambling to figure out, like, oh, what does that all mean? Because you already knew what you were going to make it mean.

Caitlin Thompson [00:39:14]:

So you can go through those exercises to get clear on your intention and to be able to articulate with clarity, why the heck you’re putting yourself through that experience and therefore, why do you wanna get the most out of it? And then there’s exercises that people can do afterwards as Well, and a lot of times, it’s, like, prompting them with certain questions for reflection of, like you know, there’s some acute, immediately after the experience questions of, like, you know, how did I show up in the experience itself? Was I resistant? What could I have done better? What did I do really well? What thoughts was I feeling in the midst of it? What was coming up for me when when I was done and laying down in that, like, kind of Blissful, glowy phase, and then there’s exercises that people can fill out, like, a week later or or days later that are then more about, like, How have I been feeling? What have I noticed is different? How am I behaving that’s different? Did I set a goal for myself? Did I stick to that goal? Why or why not? And giving them the framework to, like, Really participate and create a plan, and ask themselves questions that they might not think to ask themself, But then you can have these, like, insights of, like, oh, yeah. Actually, I haven’t been pissed at my boyfriend this week or whatever it might be, But sometimes these things are so unconscious that we can just breeze past them.

Nick Urban [00:40:46]:

Yeah. That’s why it’s really helpful to have some kind of guide or reference to help you, like, Notice the little things that otherwise seem normal until it wears off or you reflect on the way you were before your experience, and then you only then can you see the difference.

Caitlin Thompson [00:41:03]:

Yeah. And there’s plenty of people that come and, you know, they do Kambo, and they’re they’re like, I don’t get it. I don’t know. I just I felt sick, and then I felt fine, and then and then I don’t you know, my life’s the same. And I find that those people are quite detached from themselves, and they’re also usually the people that wanted the Kambo to come in and Fix them. They’re still having this narrative that, like, it’s an external thing that’s going to fix me and guide me, and therefore, they they show up in a really passive way, and so when they come out of the experience, they don’t get anywhere Because they haven’t realized that they’re the one driving the ship. You have to decide where you’re gonna go with your thoughts and your actions, And Kambos there just to, like, put rocket fuel underneath your to, like, give you the The fuerte to be like, yeah, I can do this, and the the spaciousness from, like, the grooves of your patterning, But that’s really all it does is disrupt your patterning long enough that you can see things from a a different angle, But then ultimately, you’re the one that’s gotta, like, decide, hey. I need to stop doing this behavior, or I need to stop self sabotaging, or I need to stop Having these negative self thoughts or whatever.

Nick Urban [00:42:28]:

Do you know how it affects your, like, neurochemistry and Also, like, your, I guess, electromagnetum neurochemistry?

Caitlin Thompson [00:42:35]:

You mean you mean, like, QEEG type of stuff?

Nick Urban [00:42:38]:

Yeah. Like like what it’s doing to your mind and your Conscious and your subconscious and your neurotransmitters, like, do you know what it’s affecting there?

Caitlin Thompson [00:42:46]:

Sparsely. I mean, I I definitely have speculation. I definitely think there’s an augmentation of dopamine activity after Kambo, whether that’s due to actual Production of dopamine or increased receptor expression or even increased sensitivity of dopamine receptors, Who knows? But I have noticed definitely doing Kambo before a psychedelic really enhances the Psychoactive nature of it, and I would say just the psychoactive nature of your own brain after cambo is, like, Colors are brighter. Things are a little more trippy. You know? Like, you’re still clear and cognizant, but The world just feels a little brighter. I do know of a friend of mine that has worked with some people doing qEEG investigation, and he kind of Alluded to that they’re finding, some increased alpha wave activity. I don’t know Necessarily in what part of the brain or what the implications of that are. I know alpha wave activity in the brain can be associated with, You know, states of, focus and flow and meditation, but, you know, someone like me who has, like, Pathologically high alpha frequency.

Caitlin Thompson [00:44:11]:

You might actually wanna push me too too much higher into an alpha range, so, Of course, I don’t know if that’s necessarily a good or bad thing for people.

Nick Urban [00:44:21]:

Yeah. What I find cool is you’ve you’ve described some mechanism so far in which it seems to be modulating the body, like bringing down levels if it’s if they’re too high and bring them up if they’re too low such as with the immune system.

Caitlin Thompson [00:44:34]:

Yeah. I find that Kambo seems to really hit these critical balancing points Or or or, like, centers in the physiology that their whole thing is, like, about restoring, feedback and and regulation and modulation, which I think is the critical thing that’s missing from a lot of Conventional medical technology where you’re kinda just pushing things one direction or the other and then trying to, like, find the balance, and then in the meantime, you’re screwing around with people’s chemistry and psychology until you find that More or less balanced area, but cambo seems to restore the body’s innate ability To recalibrate and to, have these highly intelligent regulatory feedback mechanisms Kind of be restored so that your body can sort itself out, and because of that, it is a highly Customizable medicine that works for a lot of people in a lot of scenarios because it’s not just going to, Indistinguish, they put you one direction or the other. It’s gonna help you modulate and rebalance.

Nick Urban [00:45:52]:

I’m also curious about the traditional use. You mentioned that they use it to acutely heighten their senses before they go out hunting. But based on your physical description of the experience, it doesn’t seem like something I’d wanna take and then go try and do anything. Like, For using it, I’d imagine that I’d wanna, like, relax the rest of the day.

Caitlin Thompson [00:46:12]:

It’s because you’re a gringo. Well, I mean, It’s very important to acknowledge that we cannot really truly compare what’s appropriate for an indigenous person and their lifestyle and their genetics to what a westerner should do. And, you know, I see a lot of people Think that there is superiority around traditional practices or values, and, you know, it’s important to Acknowledge and to respect the origins of this medicine for sure and to be in right relationship with the indigenous and with the frog itself. However, a lot of traditional practices are not appropriate for Westerners in in the things that we deal with, and so The mat says they start taking this medicine when they’re babies. It’s part of their life from an early age, you know, 2 or 3 years old, If not earlier, and they regularly engage with it, up to 20 times a month. So for them, their chemistry and their relationship with it is so different Then some person from a neospiritual community that’s doing Kambo to, you know, deal with their trauma or whatever, That’s not why they use it, and and they’re also not gonna need the same recovery time as A normal person who’s done Kambo once in their forties or whatever, you know, because they their body really knows the substance. And who knows? Maybe they lay down for a bit after and then go on the hunt. I don’t I don’t know if they, like, do it immediately.

Caitlin Thompson [00:47:56]:

Admittedly, I have never gone on a hunt with them right after because I don’t know how much they need to do that. Now they’re now they grow bananas and Cassava and stuff like that. They definitely still eat bushmeat for sure, though. I’ve I’ve eaten monkey with them and sloth, which was Exciting. Things are changing, you know, even in the traditional settings. So I don’t know how How much of their original practices with gumbo will stay alive as the modern world changes. You know, now they’ve installed Starlink or whatever, the, you know, hotspot for Wi Fi. That’s now at their village, So that and they have Facebook and they have cell phones and they wear, you know, Adidas or, you know, like, They’re modernizing for sure, and so there is an interesting, you know, integration of, like, okay.

Caitlin Thompson [00:48:50]:

How do we keep Their their practices and their customs alive, their culture alive, but also just acknowledge that the world is globalized now and We cannot stop it.

Nick Urban [00:49:03]:

Alright. So imagine that I’m here in the US. I wanna get started. It’s not quite as simple as going on Amazon or eBay or something like that and just finding the substance there and then getting it shipped to my doorstep, is it?

Caitlin Thompson [00:49:17]:

Well, I mean, you can just buy it online. It is that easy, but please don’t serve yourself. There’s certain substances like psilocybin or LSD or MDMA or whatever, and I’m all for, like, people being empowered to, like, Do it safely with their friends. You don’t necessarily need a guide. Guides can be helpful, but with with Kambo, that is not the case. You need a trained practitioner. This is not to be messed with. This is it’s not simple, and there’s a lot of safety precautions that are not obvious unless you have Real training, and I see a lot of people buying sticks off the Internet, self administering, or, god forbid, deciding that they’re a practitioner With no training, and even some of them are going to these trainings.

Caitlin Thompson [00:50:12]:

There’s all these 3 day trainings that have been popping up. You know, the weekend warriors just Just wanna, like, get it done in a weekend, and it’s completely insufficient. And then they are under the false Guys that they’re properly trained and equipped to safely work with people, and then they hurt people and they realize that their training didn’t cover what it needed to. So it’s a whole problem that’s happening as Kambo becomes really popular. So please find a qualified practitioner, And there’s a number of ways that you can and should screen your practitioner because they’re not all created equal. And like I said, there’s there’s all these Rogue practitioners that are self proclaimed or they’ve gone through, laughably insufficient training programs, and they lack the experience or or even, like, medical understanding to really know what they’re dealing with and and to know, what precautions need to be taken to mitigate most of the risks that can happen, and they’re quite simple ways to mitigate those those risks. So ask your practitioner questions about where did they receive their training, how experienced are they, what was their journey with this medicine? What safety protocols do they have in place? Do they do a test point Or or safety point. Do they screen you for contraindications? If if your practitioner does not Do a medical questionnaire, run away.

Caitlin Thompson [00:51:48]:

Don’t work with them. That’s a huge red flag because it takes 2 minutes To ask some basic medical questions that are the difference between someone living and dying. So if they’re not doing that, that is a huge red flag. Ask them what their protocols are for avoiding hyponatremia, which is basically water toxicity disturbance. That’s the main problem with cambo. It’s it doesn’t have so much to do with cambo being toxic because it’s not toxic, actually. The peptides are not toxic. But the water is toxic sometimes, especially if people are on these no salt because they either think That all Amazonian medicines require diet or they’re mixing Ayahuasca and kambo in close proximity, which I don’t advise, and they’re abstaining from salt, so you can get into trouble there.

Caitlin Thompson [00:52:39]:

So ask them what their protocols are around water drinking and then hyponatremia. Ask them what their protocols are around fainting or assisting people to the bathroom. And if they don’t Have a protocol. If they don’t have an explanation for how they are taking precautions to keep you safe for those specific examples, They are not sufficiently trained, and they should not be serving people.

Nick Urban [00:53:06]:

Those are good to know, and I’m sure you have a guide of some sorts, which I will Put in the show notes for this episode.

Caitlin Thompson [00:53:13]:

Yeah. I’ll definitely send you a link to a whole, like, article that I wrote about, like, How to choose a practitioner and what questions to ask. And if if you are looking for a practitioner, I created a Practitioner directory site called cambo finder.com, admittedly, it’s it’s quite buggy and it is the bane of my existence, and, it’s hopefully not broken at the moment, but you can search for a practitioner or a training or even Kambo supplier, in your area, that and you can you can filter people by their qualifications. You can see their certifications. You can see what other expertises they have, how long they’ve been practicing. You can see reviews written by people that have sat with them. So, that’s a good resource as well if you are looking for someone in your area that can provide to you.

Nick Urban [00:54:11]:

Oh, that’s perfect. That is really good to know. Thanks for sharing that and creating it. Can you walk us through a quick, like, end to end, like, start to finish Experience? What is this? You mentioned water just now, and I know what that is because I have a number of friends that have used Kambo, but I’m not sure if we discussed that all in this episode.

Caitlin Thompson [00:54:29]:

Yeah. So, typically, a practice that has evolved in the West is to imbibe a large amount of water Prior to the application of Kambo, and that’s not necessarily done in the indigenous communities, But that doesn’t mean that it’s not a good thing to do. However, there are risks that come with that water consumption, And so there’s something called hyponatremia that can happen, which is really, an electrolyte disturbance That happens either when there’s, like, a low level of salt or electrolyte intake or and or an excessive amount of water that’s Being taken in, and this can happen if people are sweating and, like, dehydrated and losing salt, but then drinking a bunch of water That doesn’t have minerals or electrolytes in it, or it could happen from, like, using the sauna or prolonged fasting Staying or avoiding salt because of like an Ayahuasca prep diet, and it’s it’s really bad and it it’s potentially fatal Because your cells will swell with water because they’re trying to, like, regulate the gradient between the salt inside and outside of the cell, And they’ll actually burst, and so that happens in, like, your heart cells and your brain cells, and it can kill people. So it’s very serious, And it is really the primary thing that hurts people when it comes to kambo. So How do you avoid it? Oh, it’s quite simple. You take precautions, and you can supplement with electrolytes. You can identify people who are going to be at increased Risk of electrolyte disturbance, for example, people on certain medications or that have certain health conditions where maybe there’s a Nutritional malabsorption because the gut is not very effective, or they have Lyme disease or something like that, and you can have very strict protocols around the quantity of water that people drink. I still think there’s benefit to drinking water as it lubricates The purgative process, and it can dilute the caustic effects of the bile because that can damage your, like, esophageal tissue if it’s, like, super concentrated.

Caitlin Thompson [00:56:43]:

But I kinda limit, like, the my client’s water intake to about a liter and a half initially, And then no more than a liter during the experience, and I’m also monitoring how much is coming out versus going in. Sometimes I will cut someone off and say, okay. No more water because you don’t need a whole gallon of water. And so a lot of practitioners just don’t know this, and they’re like, yes. More water is better, and They literally force people to drink a set amount of water, sometimes like 3 or 4 liters, and that’s dangerous Because the water alone kills people, so, really, you don’t need a lot. A liter, a liter and a half, I think that’s an a happy medium between having plenty to, like, fill fill your stomach, but then not going into, like, dangerous territory necessarily, And also being trained and and knowing what to look for if the signs of hyponatremia do emerge and Not hesitating to get that person to a hospital so that they can get the an IV to titrate their blood chemistry appropriately.

Nick Urban [00:57:57]:

Yeah. And that’s just like the part of, like, leading up to the experience itself and with a skilled practitioner, it shouldn’t be a problem. They should already be trained in this. And then after you find a skilled practitioner and you consume the right amount of water, then usually you find a, like, Quiet setting for this, and they have all the required materials so you don’t need to, like, get up and do anything crazy in the middle of it. Like, what’s the actual experience from someone who’s participating? Like, what can I expect?

Caitlin Thompson [00:58:27]:

Well, that’s gonna be very different for each, practitioner because it is like a an artistic expression of every person’s unique way of working with cambo. So for my ceremonies, I mean, I have a whole ritualistic container, and I start my ceremonies with, you know, Chatting with people and and getting an understanding of their intention and then debriefing them on the process so they have full informed consent of Anything that can happen, which is important, and then we open with a prayer. And then I do rape, which is a tobacco snuff, And then I do sananga, which are botanical eye drops, prior to the Kambo, and I do that to kind of Help people ease into the ceremonial setting and to also help them cultivate skills and ideas that are going to Help them be applied to moving through the cambo experience more gracefully. So it’s it’s like an hour before People are actually doing the Kambo, by the time they they come into my house. And then during the actual Kambo experience, Of course, everything’s provided. There’s cushions and pillows and blankets and buckets and tissues, and, you know, I have those interlocking foam mats. So everything is, like, really soft. So if someone were to faint and, you know, their head hits my my ground, it’s cushioned and they’re safe, there’s no sharp objects In the space where someone can hit their head, there’s artwork.

Caitlin Thompson [00:59:59]:

So, like, the whole setting is is very intentionally curated, And then I’m singing for them the entire time. I’m playing music. I’m playing instruments. I’m Reminding them of their intention. I’m checking in with them. I’m monitoring them. I’m, encouraging them, And it’s it’s like a very delicate dance of, like, making sure that they feel that you are present with them the whole time, But not crowding them. Sometimes I see practitioners, like, in their space, hands on them, touching them Every 2 minutes, okay.

Caitlin Thompson [01:00:37]:

How are you doing? Like, what’s going on? And it’s like, just let them be, and that’s why I like music is because it’s a way of, like, Not interrupting their process, but telling them showing them that you’re present, you’re paying attention, and you’re engaged in the space with them, But they’re still learning that, like, oh, no. I’m I’m the hero of my own story. This person’s not healing me. They’re just supporting me, and that’s really important because sometimes both practitioners and participants Get wrapped up in the this idea that, like, this person is healing them, and that can be very dangerous. Right? And then there’s a lot of ego that can come with that and power dynamics And and also disempowerment. So my whole ethos is, like, how do I create a container Where my client comes back to realizing that they are the medicine, that they are in charge, They are autonomous, and they are the powerful force behind their own healing, and I’m just there to, like, Remind them.

Nick Urban [01:01:43]:

But then when you’re actually applying the medicine, you take a tool and you heat it up and you apply the medicine to the tool and then Applied to their arms? Is that how it works?

Caitlin Thompson [01:01:51]:

Oh, yeah. So, like, practically speaking. So I use something called Tamishi vine, and it’s basically a wooden stick. And you light it on fire, and it has, like, a little cherry burn, and then you just burn someone. It’s it’s like a quick, like, drunk person with a cigarette at a concert. You know? And then you open up that burn to reveal, like, the lymphatic layer underneath, And you, the medicine will often come on, like, a a bamboo stick, and it’s this dried secretion that is, like, very crystalline, so you have to reconstitute it with water, unless you’re getting fresh off the frog, of course, and so you’ll add water. Some people use saliva. I think it’s okay to evolve past that.

Caitlin Thompson [01:02:36]:

You know? The reason they use saliva in the jungle is they don’t have access to clean water. Probably the same reason that they don’t drink water. And, yeah, and then you use a knife or some sort of tool to, like, reconstitute it, and you get these little frog boogers. And then you form little blobs, and then you apply them to this Open burn, and the burn’s not, like, bleeding or anything. It’s just like a shiny little white blister, and you apply it. And then within a minute, it’s this happening. Party’s on. It’s very, very fast, and it can be, you can feel a bit of a panic.

Caitlin Thompson [01:03:12]:

You’re like, oh, this is fast and this doesn’t feel okay. But once you learn, like, oh, no. This is just how it feels, Then you you can trust it a bit more and relax and not be, like, contracted or braced, but the 1st session, people are like, What the hell is did I just sign up for? Why am I doing this? And there’s not a lot of work that happens in the recession, sometimes for people if they’re really good at that, but it’s more like they’re just figuring out what the hell They have just stepped into, and then once the shock wears off, the 2nd, 3rd, and continuing sessions is where more of the It’s more it’s for more of the, like, conscious intentional work happens for a lot of people.

Nick Urban [01:03:57]:

Yeah. Just last weekend, someone was describing their experience to me, And he mentioned that he could feel, like, the sensation traveling through his arm and then through his body and then up his neck Into his head and then down, and then he started feeling, like, nauseous only after the sensation kick started coming down from the top of his head. But But it’s just interesting to hear, like, that’s what the sensation was like for him.

Caitlin Thompson [01:04:20]:

Yeah. Like I said, it’s, it really is like a embodiment Mindfulness tool because the sensations are so potent and so bizarre that They really force you to tune into feeling, and if you’re not used to that, that can be a rude awakening.

Nick Urban [01:04:40]:

Yes. Is there such thing as like a standard dose? Like, do you how how do you know how much to apply?

Caitlin Thompson [01:04:46]:

Yeah. So, I dose very conservatively, And that’s what I teach my students as well, because really you do have to customize the dosage. For 1, each each batch of medicine you get is completely unique. Just like you and I, these these frogs have completely different chemistry, And we don’t even really know how consistent their peptide composition is between frogs. It’s something we’re trying to figure out, UCSD, Except it’s taking forever to get a DNA sample because I just refuse to kill a frog. And also our unique biochemistry, it it makes it, like, completely unstandardizable. So even like one day to the next, our sensitivity is going to be different based on what we ate or how we felt or how Good our circulation is or where is our blood pressure or whatever. And so most importantly, though, is that When someone is receiving Kambo for the 1st time, they should be administered a test point.

Caitlin Thompson [01:05:50]:

There’s no reason not to do this. You just put that first point on, and you are monitoring for not only, like, Rare adverse effects, which I’ve really kind of never seen on a test point, to be honest, but in case there is one, you can you can see that, like, something is not right, and it is quite reversible. So if something’s not right, you can wipe it off, and The amount of peptides that have entered the system can be rapidly degraded and hopefully avoid having, like, an event, but you’re also gauging that person’s sensitivity and what dosage is going to be appropriate for them moving forward. And and it’s not based on body weight. It’s not based on sensitivity to other drugs. It’s not based on health or fitness. It is so unpredictable and that’s why it is so critical to do a test point with people until they have experience with the medicine That allows them to have an idea of their sensitivity. And also the the point location is gonna make a big difference.

Caitlin Thompson [01:06:56]:

Putting medicine on someone’s ankle is going to be a very different experience than putting medicine on the back of somebody’s neck or on their chest, So you have to account for that as well when choosing dosage, but also the person’s intention and what do they need. If somebody has Lyme disease and they are, like, critically ill and they have, like, super bad fatigue and pain, You do not wanna slam them into the ground. You can hurt them, and I do know of people who have who have had chronic illness Who got worse after doing Kambo, not with me, but with other providers because they were dosed in a way that was, like, brutal And they were not held in a safe space where they actually felt safe enough to vomit, which is a whole thing. And and so There is a a whole thing around, like, well, if someone doesn’t vomit, but they really need to, but they’re psychologically holding, Then they can reabsorb a lot of toxins that have just been kind of secreted into the gut and then they get recirculated and then That can cause problems too. So that person’s gonna need a different treatment than, Somebody who is maybe like an athlete, a professional athlete with no health issues or Or maybe they’re going through, a breakup or or maybe they’re becoming a father. You know? Like, men’s work is a great contrast to, like, Chronic illness. Right? So, like, chronic illness, like, I’m all about the yin, the yin, the yin, and, like, nurturing and that feminine softness, but then there’s, like, rites of passage or, men’s work or whatever where, like, you draw in that warrior energy, and it is totally appropriate to have more of a young, Like, masculine kind of hardcore approach. So it really just depends on, like, why And what the goal is, what is that person’s unique sensitivity, and and what type of experience is going to serve them? Because if they’re a traumatized being with a tendency to contract, they probably don’t need a traumatic Kambo experience To help them, that’s just gonna perpetuate bracing against life, and that is not what they need.

Caitlin Thompson [01:09:16]:

They need to learn how to, like, Induce a parasympathetic safety response in order to heal that trauma.

Nick Urban [01:09:23]:

Well, Caitlin, we’re gonna start to wind this one down. If people want to work with you, I don’t know if that’s possible remotely, or if they happen to be in Bali, they can work with you in person, or they wanna just check out your work. How can they go about that?

Caitlin Thompson [01:09:37]:

Yeah. I have a number of websites for different things, so feel free to visit all of them. You know, I have some resources on medicine frog Kambo.com, such as the intention and integration guide. So that’s free for you to use, or if you’re a practitioner, feel free to share it with your clients as a tool. And then I also have some articles on on both That website, and camosphecialist.com and cambo finders. I I mean, really, just check them all out because I have tons of resources on all of them. Kambo finder’s great if you’re looking for a practitioner in your area. There’s also some videos on there about, safety and how to choose practitioner, there there’s a bunch of different videos on there.

Caitlin Thompson [01:10:23]:

There’s also a vault on Kambo Finder, Which you can also access through my other sites. That is like a compilation of studies that I have, linked With the the name of the study and and such like that, and and then there’s a link to Scihub. If you guys don’t know about Scihub, it is It’s fantastic. It’s like this, this rebellious Russian chick who felt that everybody deserved access to reading scientific Papers for free, and so she has created this, like, sneaky, shifty website where you can put in The, DOI of any paper, that you wanna read, and it’ll pull up that full text paper. And so I I kind of explain how to use it so that you can read all the full text papers, and I have legit published research because of that tool, so I am so grateful for it. And yeah. And also on Medicine Frog Kambo, you can read a little bit more about some of my previous publications, in studies and papers that I have published on Kambo and a little bit about the current study that’s going on, And, yeah, just check all those sites out, Kambospecialist.com, medicinefrogKambo.com, Kambo finder, And then I also have information about practitioner training on Kambo specialists, so if you are feeling the call to step into being of service, or if you’re already a practitioner and you want some more specialty training, I have a Lyman autoimmune course, and will soon to have an advanced online only training for people that have already gone through some sort of basic In person training, but, you know, wanna fill in some of the gaps from their training and and just advance their knowledge. So, Yeah.

Caitlin Thompson [01:12:21]:

There’s a lot of offerings. Feel free to poke around.

Nick Urban [01:12:23]:

Awesome. Thanks for creating those and I will put links to everything we’ve mentioned so far In the show notes for this episode. And I have 1 more question for you before we wrap this one up. If there was a worldwide burning of the books and all knowledge on earth is lost, But you get to save the works of 3 teachers, and these teachers can be any form of knowledge, entertainment, whatever you want. Who would you choose and why?

Caitlin Thompson [01:12:48]:

There’s not a specific author necessarily, but, like, the Tibetan book of the dead, the the wisdom in traditional Buddhism, I it would be such a devastation to have that lost. So definitely, that’s something that I think should be preserved in this scenario. I think also maybe, so Vittorio Espammer, the Italian Biochemist who was the original, scientist who kind of isolated all these Kambo peptides, He was much more than that. He was a very mystical scientist, very similar to Albert Hofmann. He he reminds me of him, And he actually was the guy who discovered serotonin. He discovered it in the gut first called enteramine, And then later someone discovered it in the brain and called it serotonin, so he kinda got ripped off. But, yeah, I think that he’s been an incredible contributor To, research and science and maybe, like, Ram Dass. You know, there’s just there’s so much fun, playful wisdom in his teachings and his texts, And, they they there’s a lightness there’s a lightness and yet a a, wholeness to them that I can appreciate.

Caitlin Thompson [01:14:11]:

They’re not too serious, and yet they are deep. So, yeah, I think those are my 3 answers.

Nick Urban [01:14:17]:

That’s a very difficult thing to do to bring the Intensity and the the wisdom and at the same time making it light. I’m working on bringing some some lightness to the intensity to balance it out.

Caitlin Thompson [01:14:29]:

Yeah. We have to remember this is a a game at the end of the day, and we’re all just playing our little characters, and it’s it’s supposed to be fun, and There’s no way to lose the game because you’re just playing. You know?

Nick Urban [01:14:42]:

Yes. Well, Caitlin Thompson, it’s been a pleasure hosting you on the show today, And I look forward to seeing the results of your study when it’s finally done and staying in contact.

Caitlin Thompson [01:14:54]:

Yeah. Thank you so much for this opportunity, and I really enjoyed our conversation, and I hope our listeners did too. So thank you so much for your time.

Nick Urban [01:15:02]:

Until next time. I’m Nick Urban here with Caitlin Thompson signing out from mindbodypeak.com. Have a great week, and be an outlier. I hope that this has been helpful for you. If you enjoyed it, subscribe and hit the thumbs up. I love knowing who’s was in the 1% committed to reaching their full potential. Comment 1% below so that I know who you are. For all the resources and links, meet me on my website at mindbodypeak.com.

Nick Urban [01:15:31]:

I appreciate you and look forward to connecting with you.

Connect with Caitlin Thompson @ Medicine Frog Kambo

This Podcast Is Brought to You By

Nick Urban is a Biohacker, Data Scientist, Athlete, Founder of Outliyr, and the Host of the Mind Body Peak Performance Podcast. He is a Certified CHEK Practitioner, a Personal Trainer, and a Performance Health Coach. Nick is driven by curiosity which has led him to study ancient medical systems (Ayurveda, Traditional Chinese Medicine, Hermetic Principles, German New Medicine, etc), and modern science.

Nick Urban

Music by Luke Hall

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